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Saturday, March 24, 2018 - 11:00

Lesbian Historic Motif Podcast - Episode 46 (previously 20d) - Falling in Love with Cross-Dressing Girls - transcript

(Originally aired 2018/03/24 - listen here)

One of the extremely popular motifs in current lesbian historical fiction is that of cross-dressing, whether it’s the passing woman in the wild west who hooks up with a lonely widow and eventually shares her secret, or a gender-bending pirate captain whose masculine clothing is only one of the many signifiers of her rejection of society’s conventions, or the traditionally dapper “mannish” socialite of the Lost Generation back from driving ambulances on the battlefields of Flanders.

Cross-dressing has had shifting relationships to sexuality across the centuries. In recent decades, the concept has been a site of contention between lesbian butch-femme culture and trans-masculine interpretations of gender identity. At various times and places in history, cross-dressing has been embraced as a path to economic opportunity, as an escape from patriarchal authority, as an erotic advertisement by heterosexual sex workers, as a means of resolving social conflicts around same-sex desire, or even simply as a transgressive fashion statement. There has never been one single purpose or motivation for those with female-assigned bodies to take on the performance of masculine appearance, or a single interpretation assigned to such persons by their contemporaries.

In real life, only a minority of cases of cross-dressing women seem to have been motivated primarily by same-sex romantic desire. There were many other contexts in which same-sex desire was expressed historically, and many ways it can be depicted in modern historical fiction. But in Western literature written in the past, there has been a continuous thread across the centuries of female cross-dressing creating the opportunity for such desire to occur because of the initial perception of gender, which opened the door to emotions that then could not be denied.

I’d like to digress for a little bit about a literary genre known as the “portal fantasy.” I’ve always been fascinated with the authorial motivations behind writing portal fantasies. Not so much the narrative structure itself, which typically involves a person from the “real” non-fantastic world who crosses over into a fantastic realm where the story takes place, usually via a mechanism that has a particular spatial location in each of the worlds and creates a path between them.

Portal fantasies include such well-known works as Narnia, Alice in Wonderland, and The Wizard of Oz. But the genre has a long history. One more obscure early example is Margaret Cavendish’s 17th century novel The Blazing World--one of a number of works that claim the honor of being “the first science fiction novel”--which engages two entirely separate portal motifs: one a sort of Jules Verne-like “journey to the center of the earth”--a geographic portal--and one a psychological portal involving what might best be described as astral projection. The latter is the mechanism by which the real-world author gains the knowledge of the story and thus is able to relate it to us.

One of the things that fascinates me about why imaginative stories are written as portal fantasies, rather than simply being set in an entirely fantastic world, is how the author uses the portal motif to connect the reader to the secondary world. The author is saying, “This isn’t the world you know, the world around you, but it’s a place that you could go to--I’ll show you how.” That’s a different type of story than one that says, “Long ago and far away -- somewhere and somewhen you can’t get to” or a story that says, “Imagine the world you’re in now, but with magic in it. Imagine that your world could be different from what you know.” Those two types of settings show you a fantasy that’s out of reach--that can be imagined but not inhabited. But the portal fantsy--it tells you that magic is just around the corner. And it shows you how you could get there.

The portal fantasy is often framed as a true relation of actual adventures. And if it is true, then the story must explain the connection between the world of the story and the world of the author, whether it involves adventures in hidden parts of the earth (as for several Jules Verne stories), or on other planets (as with many Edgar Rice Burroughs series), or in entirely imaginary worlds (as with Oz and Narnia).

When I first started thinking about the purpose of portal fantasies, I had thought this was something of an evolutionary process: that completely independent “secondary world” settings were not possible until fantastic literature had liberated itself from the tradition of travelers’ tales and a sincere belief in the fantastic. But I’ve come to realize that was just a sense of smug modernist superiority on my part. I won’t even excuse it as being naive. One clear counter-example to a purely evolutionary view of portal fantasies is the author’s note at the end of Cavendish’s Blazing World, mentioned previously, which emphasizes the point that the story is entirely a self-conscious imaginative creation, although it’s framed otherwise, and Cavendish encourages other authors to create worlds of their own to enjoy like she has.

Still and all, the use of a portal or bridge to move the protagonist from the familiar “real” world into one where impossibilities are possible has immense power. It doesn’t merely suspend disbelief but breaks it. “Yes, I know that couldn’t happen in the world around us, but if you go travel through this tunnel, if you open the right door, if you sail over the edge of the sea, then you enter a different world entirely. And in that world the rules are different.”

That brings me back to the real topic of this essay, which was sparked by a conversation on Twitter about those of us who, when we were young, read adventure stories of cross-dressing girls with a secret hope that they would end in same-sex romance. As Emma Donoghue put it in Inseparable, her work on desire between women in literature across the ages: “Disguise plots have allowed writers to explore, as if between quotation marks or parentheses, all sorts of possibilities. By far the most popular has been the idea of accidental desire between women.”

That’s when the idea of cross-dressing plots as a portal fantasy hit me. Just like the wardrobe that led to Narnia, or the mysterious tunnel to the center of the Earth, the act of gender disguise creates an opening in the world, a doorway that conveys the character--or the reader--from a world in which desire only happens between men and women, to one where desire between women is a possible reality.

Both parties to the disguise are offered the world on the other side of the portal. The non-disguised woman has the opportunity to fix her desire on a specific (female) individual before being required to confront the transgressive nature of her desire. And the disguised woman has the opportunity to experience (and potentially return) being desired by a woman while being temporarily constrained from objecting to that desire on the grounds of gender. The use of the cross-dressing motif enables the characters to move from a world where heteronormative expectations make it impossible for them to imagine desiring each other (much less admitting to it and acting on it), to an imagined world in which the fantastic is not only possible but inevitable. 

In the context of my research into lesbian-like motifs in history, I’ve cast a rather wide net in terms of looking at cross-dressing and gender passing, both as a literary motif and in real life. I’ve also noted that--especially in real life--it can be difficult to draw a clear line between understanding these persons as taking on a disguise or as being transgender, especially given the differences in what models and concepts were available at the time. To a large extent, those aren’t even the right questions to ask about gender and sexuality in history. But in this essay I’m looking specifically at fictional depictions where the two individuals are both depicted as having a female identity at the time they first meet (although magical sex-change may later be invoked to create a heteronormative resolution), and where the romantic potential is enabled by the fact that one of them is presenting as male, unknown to the other at that time.

Now it isn’t much of a spoiler to note that it’s vanishingly rare in pre-modern literature, for the intersection of these motifs to have an ending that reads as “happily ever after as two women together.” And I suspect that modern literature has offered a fairly brief window between the era when that happily ever after ending became viable within the social context of publishing, and the era when the gender-disguise motif became considered quaintly retro. This essay is more about illusory possibilities. About unintended payoffs to those of us looking for same-sex romance. About those brief transient moments in a narrative that was never intended for us, when we were allowed to believe that the story might end differently this time. And on such scraps of hope we survived. And make no mistake, the stories I’ll be discussing here are only scraps. But scraps are better than nothing and they’re a foundation to build on in our own historical fiction.

The various stories I’m going to talk about here could be categorized in many ways. One might trace “tale types” such as the various interpretations of Ovid’s Iphis and Ianthe or the assortment of romantic quadrangle plots that include Shakespeare’sTwelfth Night, which employ a cross-dressing woman as romantic go-between from the man she loves to the woman who loves her. But I thought it would be interesting to group them according to the scope of the disguise and the direction, persistence, and resolution of the romantic attraction.

One of the oldest and most classic motifs is:

Inspired by My Male Disguise, You Love Me, and I Love You Back; This is resolved by a Divine Sex-Change

The oldest version of this--the one that the others derive from-- is the story of Iphis and Ianthe, a Latin epic poem by Ovid, written early in the 1st century. This story is part of his Metamorphoses. Iphis is raised as a boy to escape infanticide by her father and falls mutually in love with her childhood friend Ianthe to whom her parents betroth her. Iphis very clearly experiences love and desire for Ianthe and expresses at some length the frustration that, as a woman herself, there is nothing she can do to fulfil that desire. Ianthe believes, more straightforwardly, that she is in love with a boy. Things progress apace toward a wedding with Iphis worried about what will happen when Ianthe finds out the truth. Then Iphis’s mother (who was responsible for the disguise in the first place) takes Iphis to the temple of Io on the eve of the wedding and prays for an answer. A miracle occurs. Iphis is transformed by divine interventoin into a man and the marriage goes forward.

This, of course, is more easily understood as a transgender myth, rather than a lesbian one. In many ways, the classical and medieval understandings of gender and sexuality were more friendly to transgender resolutions of such stories than to homosexual ones. There’s room enough for the story to be embraced from both angles. Iphis clearly identifies as a woman in disguise up to the point of the miracle. But she also embraces the change as a means of being with the woman she loves.

This story was revived multiple times across the centuries. A French drama of the early 17th century by Isaac de Benserade follows the same basic plot but postpones the divine sex-change until after the wedding, allowing for the implication that the two women have, in fact, experienced what is presented as an enjoyable wedding night together.

Iphis and Ianthe was also the inspiration for the medieval French tale Yde et Olive that appears in a number of different versions. The first is an anonymous French epic poem from around 1300 and there’s a slightly different prose version in the 15th century. The story is part of the genealogical epic Huon de Bordeaux. As a genealogical epic (aside from other considerations) the tale has a biological imperative for the central characters to have offspring.

Yde runs away from home to escape her father’s incestuous advances and disguises herself as a knight to make her way in the world. She gains the gratitude of the Emperor of Rome who offers her his daughter Olive’s hand in marriage. Olive has rejected her other suitors but falls deeply in love with Yde. Yde at first begs off on the engagement, arguing that she isn’t of noble enough birth for an emperor’s daughter, but this is overcome in part because of Olive’s eagerness for the match. The wedding takes place but Yde avoids consummating it with a plea of illness (for which we may understand she’s claiming impotence). Instead she satisfies Olive with kisses and embraces. But eventually Olive can’t be put off any longer and Yde reveals her true sex. Olive, surprisingly enough, vows to continue with the marriage and treat Yde as she would a male husband. Unfortunately, an eavesdropper hears this conversation and betrays them to the emperor who feels the need to condemn them both. In one version there is a complicated diversionary tactic involving Yde being required to take a bath before witnesses and a magical stag that interrupts the proceedings before she can be betrayed. But before the sentence of death can be carried out, Yde is miraculously transformed into a man, making everything ok.

There’s a slightly different ending in the next group, which is:

Inspired by My Male Disguise, You Love Me, and I Love You Back; We are Rescued by a Convenient Twin Brother (or Other Close Relative)

Keep track of the “convenient twin brother” motif because we’ll be seeing it again, although this one isn’t really a good example of that escape hatch.

Another version of the story of Yde and Olive is titled Miracle de la fille d’un roy “Miracle of a King’s Daughter”, an anonymous French drama of the 14th century. Among other minor details, such as naming the protagonist Ysabel, this version differs in resolving the transient “problem” of the same-sex marriage by having Yde’s father--remember the guy she ran away from home to escape?--well, he shows up at the last moment, whereupon each woman is married off to the other’s father. This definitely falls in the category of “medieval people had a weird idea of happily ever after.”

One of the things you discover when you start looking at non-Christian literary traditions, is that a lot of the expectations you might have taken for grated get thrown out the window. Although I’ve oversimplified some of the interpersonal dynamics in this one, we can still call it:

Inspired by My Male Disguise, You Love Me, and I Love You Back; We Live Happily Ever After But It’s Complicated

One of the stories in the Arabic literary tradition that eventually became codified as the Thousand and One Nights, is that of Qamar al-Zaman and the Princess Boudour. The episode we’re interseted in here is only one small part of the complex saga in the original. This story has some family resemblances to Yde and Olive but is strikingly different in how it treats the relationship between its female protagonists after the marriage. Being free from some of the constraints of Christian literature, it achieves a resolution in which the two women continue to share a household, albeit as co-wives of the same man. Boudour is traveling with her husband Qamar. When he mysteriously disappears, she puts on his clothes and takes his name to protect herself. She arrives at the Isle of Ebony, whose king wishes to retire from the throne. He forces Boudour to marry his daughter Hayat al-Nefous and became his heir. Boudoir puts off revealing her secret to Hayat for several days after the wedding, but in the mean time satisfies her erotically with caresses and kisses. After finally revealing her true sex, the two live happily as a married couple until the real Qamar al-Zaman shows up. At that point, Boudour explains everything and abdicates the throne in her husbands' favor, after which Qamar takes Hayat as his second wife with Boudour stipulating that they (the wives) will share a house together.

Although a resolution ending in marriage usually required some sort of transformation or substitution, sometimes you get:

Inspired by My Male Disguise, You Love Me, and I Love You Back; But Once You Know the Truth We Can Only be Friends

The romance of Amadis de Gaule was the medieval equivalent of a best-seller, having multiple anonymous versions in French, Spanish, and Portuguese in the 14th and15th century. But the best known version is a Spanish reworking by Garci Rodríguez de Montalvo written around 1500. This is a long, sprawling, complex tale (like many of the medieval romance cycles) and the cross-dressed ladies appear in minor episodes appended to the main story. Although there are two different stories involving disguised women, they may, in fact, be variants of the same underlying tale.

Both Oronce and La Belle Sauvage engage in martial deeds (with armor playing some part in their gender disguise). Oronce has been fighting for the cause of a duchess (who believes her to be a man). The duchess first catches sight of Oronce’s face as she takes off her armor and the duchess’s admiration turns to desperate love when she sees Oronce’s “delicate rosy beauty.” Mind you, she still thinks Oronce is a man while having this reaction. One of the interesting aspects of medieval literature is that the standards for male and female beauty are often quite similar.

But Oronce has a second admirer as well. The princess Licinie is distracted from her efforts to free her imprisoned brother by Oronce’s beauty and also falls desperately in love. And then a third woman, a queen, is similarly smitten with Oronce. She is distressed to discover that the object of her affection is a woman, but the duchess (who has gone through the same discovery and disappointment earlier) consoles her that at least they both found out before making fools of themselves in public.

The princess Licinie, though, has been so traumatized by discovering her “error” in falling in love with a disguised woman that she scrutinizes a later object of affection for signs that his attractive beauty also signals an underlying female identity. Think of it as the same sort of gender panic we see today with transgender bathroom legislation, where suddenly almost anyone can find themself accused of not meeting the requirements for acceptable gender presentation.

In the same story cycle, La Belle Sauvage similarly enchants the young lady she serves as a chevalier, and the narrator points out that La Belle Sauvage possesses a type of beauty such that that she will attract both men and women, depending on which gender’s clothing she wears. There is some indication in the stories that these female knights kept the admiration of their female admirers even after the discovery of their sex, although only as a sincere platonic affection.

Not all cases of attraction to women in disguise are treated as harmless mistakes. In the sex-negative world of early saints’ lives, sexual desire of any type is frowned on, leading to stories of the form:

Due to My Male Disguise You Love Me, But I’m Not Interested; Then Things Get Ugly

This motif shows up in multiple variations in the genre of early saints’ biographies involving gender disguise in order for a woman to enter a male-only monastery. The particular tale-type covered here is attributed to several different saints, including Saint Margarita or Pelagius and Saint Eugenia, among others. The general plot involves a holy woman who disguises herself as a man in order to enter a male-only monastic institution for religious purposes. In this disguise, she becomes the unwilling object of desire from a woman she interacts with.

In the case of Eugenia, she heals the woman, who then develops a romantic fixation on her. Eugenia rebuffs the woman who then accuses her of rape. In the case of Margarita, she is appointed as prior of a women’s convent and the portress there becomes pregnant and names Margarita as the father. Margarita silently accepts the accusation and is expelled from the convent in disgrace. Saint Marina has a similar story to Margarita’s, but when she silently accepts being named as the father of the child, she then takes responsibility for raising it. Being saints, none of these women ever are shown returning the romantic desires of their accusers.

This same general shape of story appears in the French romance of Silence written by Heldris de Cornualle, around 1200. Silence’s parents have raised her as a boy so that she can inherit due to a prohibition on female heirs. She goes off to have adventures and achieves knightly renown in this guise. This brings her to the English court and the amorous (and adultrous) attention of Queen Eufeme. Silence doesn’t return the queen’s desire (though it isn’t entirely clear whether she rejects same-sex desire in general or--as she claims in the text--simply rejects adultery). In revenge, Queen Eupheme accuses her of sexual assault and has her sent off on an impossible quest, intending it to be fatal. Various adventures ensue and Silence returns to the court with her honor vindicated, but Merlin reveals her secret and so uncovers the queen’s lies. The queen is executed and Silence returns to life as a woman, the inheritance laws are reversed to allow women to inherit, and the king marries her (with the late queen barely cold in her grave).

These tales where the romantic desire is one-sided don’t always result in tragedy. Sometimes we get:

Due to My Male Disguise You Love Me, But I’m Not Interested; Once You Know the Truth We Can be Friends

The most familiar story of this group is probably Shakespeare’s As You Like It written around 1600. In one of Shakespeare’s typically convoluted tales of multiple romances and mistaken identities, Rosalind (in male disguise as Ganymede) and her cousin Celia are wandering in the Forest of Arden after Rosalind has been exiled by Celia’s father, the Duke. In the forest they fall in with some shepherds, including Silvius who has just had his love scorned by the shepherdess Phoebe. Phoebe falls in love with Rosalind as Ganymede, but Rosalind has always been in love with Orlando, who is also wandering the forest for his own reasons. Phoebe’s attraction, however, does not outlast the revelation of Rosalind’s true sex and she then happily pairs off with the shepherd Silvius. It’s a lot more complicated that that, though. It is Shakespeare after all.

A more obscure version of the motif, also from English drama around 1600, is in the play James the Fourth  by Robert Greene. Skipping some really complicated background to the plot, Dorothea, the rejected wife of the King of Scotland has fled the court in male disguise to escape an assassain. She has conveniently received a brief lesson in swordplay for her protection and to assist the masquerade. The assassin pursues Dorothea, aware of her disguise. They fight and Dorothea is wounded and is rescued and nursed by Lady Anderson, who then falls in love with her wounded guest, claiming that she will “blush, grieve, and die in ... insatiate lust” if not loved in return. This is not exactly welcome news to Lord Anderson, but he’s called away to war, giving Dorothea and Lady Anderson opportunity for a confusing conversation in which Dorothea gently refuses the lady’s love without revealing her secret, and then explains that she’s really the missing Queen of Scotland that everyone is out hunting for. In the midst of this, Dorothea assures Lady Anderson she loves her as a friend, and Lady Anderson’s previous protestations of love are quietly forgotten.

In many gender disguise plots, we are teased with the idea that the object of desire is not determined by anatomy. But this isn’t always the case, as in the somewhat changeable affections found in:

Due to My Male Disguise You Love Me, But I’m Not Interested; Then we are Rescued by a Divine Sex-Change and Now I Do Love You

The story of Tristan de Nanteuil an anonymous, French romance written in the late 14th century, is part of the extended Arthurian story cycle. Think of it as a sort of medieval Arthurian fan-fiction craze. The lady Blanchandine is Tristan’s wife and disguises herself as a man in order to accompany him on campaign and hide from her father who disapproved of the match. While in disguise, she comes to the amorous attention of the Saracen princess Clarinde. When Tristan is briefly believed dead, Blanchandine is pressured into marrying Clarinde. She weasels out of performing her marital duties, which would reveal her true sex, with her predicament culminating in a “public bath test” similar to that in Yde and Olive. As in the tale of Yde, the test is interrupted by the appearance of a supernatural stag. You wonder how many supernatural stags were running around in the woods, looking for people having their gender tested by a public bath!

Blanchandine pursues the stag and, when lost in the forest, has a mystical encounter where she is offered the choice of a divine sex-change. Figuring that it’s a good way out of her dilemma (and still believing Tristan to be dead), Blanchandine takes the offer. Instantly, the now-male Blanchandine becomes romantically interested in Clarinde and--when Tristan unexpectedly turns up alive--is no longer romantically interested in him. This sort of biologically determined desire is actually rare in gender disguise stories. People may conclude that their love is impossible due to the sex of their loved one, but generally the desire itself is acknowledged.

Gender-confusion romances that resolve into friendships are nice, but in general literature likes to finish a story with a romance. If the audience wasn’t yet ready for a same-sex romance, then the resolution could either deploy a gender-change or deflect the romantic feelings onto another character. One way to have your cake and eat it too was to come up with a romantic object who was essentially identical except for being an approved gender. Hence the surprising frequency of identical fraternal twin brothers. I call this next group:

Due to My Male Disguise You Love Me, But I’m Not Interested; We are Rescued by a Convenient Twin Brother (or Other Close Relative)

One of the classics of Italian Renaissance literature was Ludovico Ariosto’s Orlando Furioso, published in the early 16th century. The gender bending is part of what inspired Virginia Woolf’s Orlando at a later date, but here we’re concerned with the original. The Princess Fiordispina falls in love with the Amazon warrior Bradamante, believing her to be a man. In this case, Bradamante isn’t deliberately disguising herself as a man, it’s just that people assume that someone charging around the landscape in armor must be male. Fiordispina’s desire continues after discovering her error, even in the face of Bradamante’s attempts to dissuade her. I have some excerpts from this in my podcast on female knights in shining armor. Finally Fiordispina is deflected onto an acceptable romantic object, via the convenient twin brother motif, though in a somewhat creepy guise. Bradamante’s brother Ricciardetto pretends to be his sister in order to get Fiordispina in bed at which point he claims that he’s a divinely gender-transformed version of his sister. One might think that Fiordispina could tell the difference.

The original gender-disguise story that Shakespeare used in Twelfth Night becan as the Italian comedy Gl’Ingannati, first performed in 1537. The twin siblings Fabritio and Lelia are separated from each other during the sack of Rome. Lelia ends up in Modena where her former lover Flamineo lives. Lelia disguises herself as a male page to serve her ex. Flaminio, of course, doesn’t recognize her and sends her as a messenger to court his new beloved, Isabella. Isabella falls in love with Lelia instead. The brother, Fabritio, arrives in the nick of time to much confusion and several transfers of affections to sort out the characters into heterosexual couples when all is revealed.

The essential story is similar in Shakespeare’s Twelfth Night, written around 1600. This time the twin siblings are Viola and Sebastian, separated during a shipwreck. Viola, cross-dressing as Cesario falls in love with Duke Orsinio but is sent by him as a love-emissary to the heiress Olivia. Olivia, of course, falls in love with Cesario. Viola (as Cesario) does express admiration for Olivia, although it’s be intended purely as part of her disguise. Fortunately for the resolution, the convenient twin brother Sebastian shows up in time to distract Olivia so that Duke Orsinio is free to realize he’s really in love with his former page-boy. Another aspect of all of these gender-confusion plots is that there’s fair amount of male same-sex romance being portrayed here as well.

Not all gender disguises on stage were done with innocent intent, especially as we move into the more cynical 17th century. Seduction for the sake of revenge features in a number of motifs. We’ll start with:

I’m Going to Disguise Myself as a Man and Seduce You to Get Revenge on the Man We Both Love

In the mid 17th century Margaret Cavendish--the same woman who wrote the portal fantasy The Blazing World that I mentioned at the beginning of the show--wrote a tangled farce entitled Matrimonial Trouble. This is evidently a complex, multi-threaded plot but I have been unable to dig up the details beyond an incident where Mistress Forsaken disguises herself as a man to attend her (male) ex-lover’s wedding in order to seduce his new wife.

A similar motivation appears in a French drama titled La Femme, Juge, et partie “The Wife, Judge, and Accuser” by Antoine Jacob Montfleury, again from the mid 17th century. A wronged wife disguises herself as a man to seduce her husband’s new fiancée. I’ve included these seduction-while-disguised plots because part of the drama is that the target of the seduction is shown as being attracted to her disguised rival. So they continue to show cross-dressing as a window on the possibility of same-sex attraction.

An unexpected twist shows up in the variant I call:

I’m Going to Disguise Myself as a Man and Seduce You to Get Revenge on the Man We Both Love; But We Fall in Love Instead; and Tragedy Ensues

This is another English play from the mid 17th century, titled Brennoralt  by Sir John Suckling. Bear with me because the plot is compicated. Iphigene is jealous of the attention her (male) object of affection Almerin is paying to Francelia, so Iphigene disguises herself as a man to court Francelia in order to distract her away from Almerin. That would leave Alermin lonely so he’d turn back to Iphigene. But Francelia becomes enamored of Iphigene and they spend the night together. When Almerin catches them together in the morning, he believes Francelia has been unfaithful to him with a strange man, that is, Iphegene. In a fit of jealousy he stabs them both. As the two women lie dying in each others’ arms, now that Iphigene’s true sex is revealed, Francelia rejects Almerin in favor of Iphigene, preferring her love to his. Alas, they die.

Here’s another peculiar variant of disguise and revenge that I call:

I’m Going to Disguise Myself as a Man and You’re Going to Seduce Me to Get Revenge on the Man We Both Love

 In the early 17th century play The Doubtful Heir  by James Shirley, we have the usual farcical tangle of relationships. King Ferdinand is a notorious philanderer and is neglecting his beautiful queen Olivia in favor of his mistress Rosania. But for logistical reasons, Rosania is disguised as a boy, Tiberio, and playing the part of the page boy to the king. Queen Olivia decides to take revenge on her husband by seducing his page--who is actually the disguised mistress Rosania. King Ferdinand encourages this encounter  in order to distract Olivia and let her think she’s pulling one over on him. The two women have a rather hot and heavy make-out session, though it doesn’t go far enough for the disguise to be revealed at the time.

Leaving behind these stories of seduction and revenge, let’s finish the stories of love and gender disguise with three that are very individual in their structure. The first, although presented in fictionalized form, was inspired by true events. Let’s describe it as:

I Disguise Myself as a Man to Court You, and You Love Me Back, Possibly Well Aware That I’m a Woman; Drama and Tragedy Ensue

This is taken from the text An Historical and Physical Dissertation on the Case of Catherine Vizzani an adapted translation from the Italian original by John Cleland, written in 1751. This example is somewhat marginal to the theme of this podcast, given that it purports to be biography (though in an era when many an invention was marketed as a “true history”) and that at least some of Catherine’s lovers were well aware that she was a woman despite the male clothing. But there are definitely episodes that fit the literary motif of the idea of same-sex love being made possible by the gender disguise. Catherine Vizzani knew she was romantically attracted to women from an early age and, somewhat surprisingly, her parents seem to have shrugged and done what they could to help her pursue happiness. She courted one woman at first in the context of female pursuits such as sewing lessons, but also disguised herself as a man to serenade her at her window at night. When that relationship didn’t pan out, Catherine continued living as a man, though the course of various odd jobs, and several more girlfriends. She meets her downfall when she persuades one woman to elope with her and is shot during the pursuit and subsequently dies. I did an entire episode on Catherine Vizzani which you can listen to for more details.

One of the most intriguing variations on the Iphis and Ianthe story can be summed up as:

We are Both in Disguise and Both Think We Love a Man; But We’re OK with Being Women in Love Too When We Find Out; But We are Rescued by a Divine Sex-Change

This late 16th century neo-classical romp by John Lyly is titled Gallathea after one of the female protagonists. Here is a plot with serious gender-bending potential. Both women--Gallathea and Phillida--are going about in male disguise and not only find themselves objects of desire for Diana’s nymphs (who, of course, were notoriously disdainful of men, so one has to suspect they knew exactly who it was they were flirting with) but both women fall in love with each other, each initially believing she is safely in love with a man. The story progresses through their dawning awareness as each woman begins to suspect the other woman is employing the same disguise she is. Yet they continue their romantic pursuit. When the truth comes out, their romance is brought to judgment before two goddesses. The Goddess Diana lectures them sternly about chastity and tells the to abandon their passion, but the Goddess Venus approves of their passion and is willing to do what it takes to enable it. The two women declare that they will love each other--and only each other--forever no matter what. So Venus offers to turn one of them into a man. Gallathea and Phillida are ok with that, as long as they can stay together as a couple. They leave it up to Venus to pick which one of them gets changed, but the play leaves off before the actual transformation occurs. So technically the play ends with two women publicly announcing their mutual love for each other and their intention to marry. Hey, I’ll take what I can get.

Gender disguise plots are less commonly an opportunity for same-sex desire as we leave the Renaissance behind, but I’d hate to leave without a mention of one of my favorite gender-queer romps of all time, which we can sum up as:

Due to My Male Disguise You are Uninterested in Me, But Once You Know the My True Sex We Can be Romantic Friends and Romp Across Europe Together, Both in Male Disguise, and Then Live Happily Ever After As Women

This is, of course, the mid 18th century picaresque novel, The Travels and Adventures of Mademoiselle de Richelieu. The category description pretty much sums up the entire plot. Alithea de Richelieu, having achieved economic independence, decides to go traveling, disguising herself as a man, the Chevalier de Radpont, for convenience and safety. She regularly flirts with women she encounters, though always crying off it if gets too serious, until she encounters the lovely widow Arabella de Montferan. Arabella’s previous marriage was such a disaster that she now rebuffs all men. Alithea pursues her in vain and can only win her friendship by revealing her own true sex, at which point they pledge eternal friendship and embrace passionately. Arabella decides the only way she can join Alithea on her adventures and yet maintain her reputation is to join her in cross-dressing. They indulge in regular teasing along the lines of “if only one of us were what we pretend to be, we could marry.” And, in the end, after returning home from their adventures and returning to women’s clothing, they vow to spend the rest of their lives together and never marry. And that’s what they do. I’ve also done a separate podcast entirely on this novel, with excerpts of all of the juicy parts.

Alithea and Arabella make a perfect conclusion to this exploration of the romantic portal-worlds made possible by gender disguise. Without the initial cross-dressing, Alithea would never have gone on her adventures. But it isn’t the disguised Chevalier de Radpont who wins the heart of the widow Arabella, only Alithea in her true self as a woman can do that. And it is through their parallel flirtations with other women, while both of them are disguised as men, that they begin to realize how much they each want to be each other’s romantic object. Their desire is displaced, not onto acceptable male objects, but onto safely unobtainable female ones, until they are ready to settle down together. Their journey through Europe takes them through that portal and out the other side. If they are not yet able--in the 18th century--to put a name to what they have together, certainly we can recognize it for happily ever after.

Show Notes

An exploration of the concept of the “portal fantasy” and how it applies to historic literature involving cross-dressing as a context for same-sex desire.

In this episode we talk about

  • The context of women cross-dressing in history and literature
  • The literary genre of “portal fantasies” and the devices they use to connect author, reader, and story into a unified whole
  • Cross-dressing plots as a type of romantic portal fantasy
  • A catalog of story structures in which cross-dressing provides a context for same-sex desire

Further information about the texts and topics can be found at the following links:

For general discussions of female cross-dressing in literature and real life see the following:

Links to the Lesbian Historic Motif Project Online

Links to Heather Online

Major category: 
LHMP
Monday, March 19, 2018 - 07:00

I'm starting a series of four articles from a collection entitled Body Guards: The Cultural Politics of Gender Ambiguity. After this first article, the others group nicely to cover shifts in cultural understandings of gender and sexuality categories in western Europe in the 16th through 18th centuries. If it weren't for the blog's structure of covering the contents of a collection in series, I'd pair this current article with another one I have coming up on the sexual context of cross-dressing in the medieval Middle East. So you'll have to "hold that thought" for another month until I get to it.

I've just spent the weekend in New York City at a conference on dress and fashion in medieval history (which my girlfriend was one of the organizers for) and had the fun of meeting a scholar whose work has appeared in this blog: Francesca Canadé Sautman, one of the editors of the collection Same Sex Love and Desire Among Women in the Middle Ages. Though, in the way of academia, her paper this weekend had nothing to do with sexuality, but was on 15th century Burgundian women's head coverings.

During the end-of-conference discussion session I was tossed the assignment to answer an audience member's question about medieval cross-dressing and gender identity. I'm not sure that my answer was any more coherent than "it's complicated, talk to me during the lunch break." But it was fun to participate to that extent. (And I've been once again inspired to start working on a paper on the topic of medieval cross-dressing for the Kalamazoo medieval congress at some point in the future.)

Major category: 
LHMP
Full citation: 

Rowson, Everett K. 1991. “The categorization of gender and sexual irregularity in medieval Arabic vice lists” in Body guards : the cultural politics of gender ambiguity edited by Julia Epstein & Kristina Straub. Routledge, New York. ISBN 0-415-90388-2

Publication summary: 

A collection of papers on topics relating to non-normative gender and sexuality in history. The Project will cover four of the papers with relevant content.

Rowson, Everett K. "The Categorization of Gender and Sexual Irregularity in Medieval Arabic Vice Lists "

Western interpretations of variant sexuality in Middle Eastern societies have often been filtered through stereotypes and Orientalism. There can be a fixation on certain key gender-related social differences, such as the harem and the veil. From an early date, Western commentaries have attributed to Islamic societies the acceptance or promotion of self-indulgence, licentiousness, and sexual deviance--views that often say more about Western attitudes than Islamic ones. This article examines certain aspects of the underlying historic reality of the cultural differences that gave rise to those stereotypes, especially as expressed in “lists of vices” in medieval Islamic literature.

Although legal and medical literature in Arabic also touches on sexual variance, these lists and discussions come from a more literary genre, which gives us  better insight into everyday attitudes, at least of their literate, urban, elite, male audiences. The texts are generally encyclopedic works that include stories, proverbs, discussions of literary tropes, and other genres. Not all such works cover sexuality, but in those that do, the structure and organization of the text sheds much light on how their societies viewed gender and sexuality, especially when they strayed into irregular behavior.

The content of the volumes cannot always be assumed to reflect precisely contemporary attitudes, as material that entered the genre, for example, in the 9th century, remained in use unchanged in subsequent collections for the next millennium. New material is added over time, which can provide clues to changes in attitude, but the continuity of material is itself illuminating.

The material covered in this article falls generally under the topic of “profligacy”, that is, behavior that was considered outside societal norms. The literary texts imply a fairly indulgent attitude toward such transgressions, but this cannot be taken literally as indicating indulgence in everyday life. Furthermore, although the author of one of these works may tell stories of profligacy on himself, it can’t be assumed automatically to reflect his actual behavior. But the genre certainly gives evidence for attitudes, especially the humorous material which relies of certain social assumptions and attitudes for its “punchline”.

The humorous anecdotes give evidence for the relative importance of sexual behavior, choice of sexual object, and gender stereotyping. As humor, it pokes fun at those who deviate from approved modes, but without necessarily applying moral judgment. Inappropriate sex was funny but not necessarily immoral. As a literary genre (as opposed to a factual account), the humor could be mitigated by a contrast of desire and action. One might admit personally to inappropriate desires but retain one’s dignity by not admitting to indulging in them. When the humor was directed externally rather than internally, it was more likely to reflect an underlying hostility to the behavior.

As an illustrative example, the author reviews the contents of the 11th century work by al-Jurjānī The Book of Metonymic Expressions of the Litterateurs and Allusive Phrases of the Eloquent, an instruction manual for speaking of indecent or ill-omened topics obliquely. Nine chapters cover sexual matters, in a hierarchical fashion going from the least negative topics to the most negative. The ways that the topics are grouped within these chapters, as well as the hierarchy, give insight into underlying cultural assumptions--in particular, they point up the contrast in Western sexual assumptions with the structures implicit in this text.

The primary focus is on identifying sexually illicit topics, while there is also a cultural assumption that the book’s audience (and therefore the book’s viewpoint) is an adult male whose sexual identity is as someone who takes the active part in penetrative sex. [Note: Although only a small part of the text is relevant to the topic of women having sex with women, it’s useful to have a brief tour of the larger structure.]

The first chapter concerns fornication--that is, a man having penetrative sex with a woman he does not have legal access to. This is followed by three chapters covering other deviations from “normative” sex: failure of the sex act due to male impotence, sex with a virgin, and anal sex with a woman. The next chapter completes the possibilities for illicit penetrative sex: sex with a boy. The book then moves on to non-penetrative sexual activities with a set of topics that might otherwise seem a random collection: inter-crural sex, male masturbation, and sex between women. The common factor, however, is the absence of a penetrative sex act. (Penetration was not considered a typical part of sexual activity between women.) Moving on to less acceptable sexual modes, there is a chapter on an adult man who is the passive recipient of penetrative sex. The last two chapters cover the social context of sex: the question of sexual jealousy (and lack thereof), and the act of pandering (procuring a sex partner for a third party).

For the rest of the article, I’m only going to summarize the section of the one chapter that includes sex between women.

The usual term for sex between women was saḥq literally “rubbing, pounding.” But the metaphoric euphemisms in al-Jurjānī’s work are all male-centered and disapproving (being intended for the use of male poets): “a war in which there is no spear-thrusting”, “a shield with a shield”, “a seashell whose edges close over another seashell”. But at the same time, anecdotes are given that indicate the existence of such relationships. And other euphemisms are given that appear more neutral, such as saying that someone “eats figs” to imply sex between women. [Note: I'm going to guess that this is a image metaphor of a ripe fig that has split open, to display the pink flesh inside, and is specifically a reference to oral sex.]

Another author, al-Rāghib (The Colloquies of the Litterateurs, also 11th century?) has a few more details on the possibilities of sex between women, including the use of dildoes (though this specific element is placed in the chapter on penetrative sex, again showint the hierarchy of concerns--the point isn't the type of partner, but the act of penetration). Al-Rāghib includes an anecdote in which a woman expresses a preference for saḥq over heterosexual sex, but outweighs it with several in which sex between women is presented as a dispreferred option. There is also a general failure to distinguish between female masturbation and sex between women. In general, saḥq is framed as a rejection of men (and typically of penetration in general) and he cites a legendary origin of the practice in pre-Islamic times in a love affair between an Arab noblewoman and the wife of a Christian Arab.

Although sex between men in Arabic sources sometimes involves feminization of the passive partner, there is no indication that sex between women was associated with women taking on masculine traits or dress. Nor is there any reference to an active-passive distinction between women (where such a distinction is critical to the acceptability of male-male relations). There are literary references to women adopting masculine behaviors: wearing male clothing, carrying swords, riding horseback, etc. (more in the 7-8th centuries when the practice of seclusion was less rigorous) but this was not associated in the popular mind with sexual irregularity. One class of ritualized female cross-dressing was the ghulāmīyāt--slave entertainers who dressed like pubescent boys or young men (complete with painted mustaches in some cases)--which were popular in 9th century Baghdad. However this form of cross-dressing was associated with providing pleasure to men who enjoyed sex with boys, not to an adoption of a male role in reference to a female sexual partner. [Note: I have another article coming up in the queue that goes into this topic in more detail.]

Time period: 
Saturday, March 17, 2018 - 07:00

Lesbian Historic Motif Podcast - Episode 45 (previously 20c) - Book Appreciation with Elizabeth Bear - Transcript

(Originally aired 2018/03/17 - listen here)

Heather Rose Jones: Last week, we had Elizabeth Bear on the show to talk about her queer steampunk stories, Karen Memory, and the brand new, Stone Mad. In this segment, she’s here to talk about historically based books with queer women that she's particularly enjoyed reading.

Elizabeth Bear: Hi. [Laughter] Well, I have my - I brought a book to class today. The book that I have brought to class is Nisi Shawl’s Everfair. And I’m going to be honest since I didn't entirely do my homework because I have had this on my nightstand for a month, and I literally just started reading it.

H:        Well, I think you're gonna really enjoy it. I love the book, and it’s a very different type of story structure than I’m used to, which, I always like having my story expectations shaken up.

E:         I'm just a couple of chapters in, and I’ve been really soaking in the language which is gorgeous and the characters who are just delightful. But what I’m getting an idea of the structure of the book so far, going into it, is that it seems to be a sort of historical tapestry.

H:        Yes.

E:         It reminds me almost of some of the structures that epic fantasy uses sometimes where we have a lot of small points of view showing us different aspects of how the story comes together and different perspectives on events that are happening in different parts of the world.

H:        So, let's bring the listeners up to speed with the concept of the book here.

E:         Sure. Everfair is an alternate steampunk history which deals with the historically hideous Belgian colonization of the Congo and their massacre there of about 50% of the Congolese citizens. And this is a happier – this is a fix-it fic for history.

H:        Yeah.

E:         [Laughter] This is a book about what happens if those people managed to buy a lot of the land back from the colonizers and survive, and thrive, and create a kind of “proto-Wakanda,” I think.

H:        Yeah, good comparison.

E:         Yeah, I think if you want queer historical fantasy to tide you over – well, I mean, the Black Panther will have been out by the time this airs. If you want queer historical fantasy as Black Panther methadone, this is your book. [Laughter]

H:        Yeah, and another aspect that it brings in is the way that the well-meaning white people in Britain, the socialists – was it the Fabians, if I’m remembering correctly, in Britain?

E:         Yeah, I think that’s who they are.

H:        …Bring money in to buy up this land and form a progressive colony with all of its wonderful steampunk elements and then, eventually, discover that just coming in and doing good doesn't make them the good guys of the story necessarily.

E:         Isn't that a hard thing to learn?

H:        Yes.

E:         Yeah, and the characters, the engineers… As I said, it's early in the book. I am particularly taken so far, actually, with the first character we meet who I think is Lisette, the bicyclist, the woman who’s in love with machines.

H:        Yes. And, of course, she's one of the characters that makes the book relevant for this podcast because there is a lovely sprinkling throughout the book of women in love with women in various types of relationships.

E:         And she eventually goes off into the main plot line and hooks up with somebody, doesn't she?

H:        Oh, yeah.

E:         I think that's where this is going. [Laughter]

H:        Okay. So, I know you said you don't mind spoilers but, yeah, she hooks up with someone.

E:         I don’t mind spoilers.

H:        And there are multiple other relationships between women of various types that will be lovely to see as well as just lots and lots of different relationships.

E:         I'm so excited about this book. I have been a huge fan of Nisi’s for years. She is an amazing human being. I’m actually thrilled that I’m going to be teaching a workshop with her this year, and she's going to be an instructor at Viable Paradise with me. Her command of language is so amazing and engrossing that I just keep reading sentences two or three times. [Laughter]

H:        [Laughter] And one of the things that I particularly liked about Everfair is that the presentation of the relationships and the people’s, the characters’ understanding of their own desires and sexuality is very true to the times. It's not modern people stuck back in a historical story. And I really appreciated that they're having issues, and problems, and delights that are rooted in the times of the story.

E:         Oh, that's fantastic. I'm so looking forward to this. I just have to turn in my novel, [Laughter] and then I can sit on the couch and read all day.

H:        Yeah. Well, thank you so much for sharing your love for this book that you look forward to loving even more as you go along.

E:         Thank you for giving me the opportunity, and thank you, Nisi, for writing it.

H:        Yes, absolutely.

Show Notes

In the Book Appreciation segments, our featured authors (or your host) will talk about one or more favorite books with queer female characters in a historic setting.

In this episode Elizabeth Bear recommends a favorite queer historical novel:

  • Everfair by Nisi Shawl - Everfair is a alternate steampunk history of colonial Congo, with a lovely wealth of queer characters rooted in the historic understandings of sexuality of the times.

Links to the Lesbian Historic Motif Project Online

Links to Heather Online

Links to Elizabeth Bear Online

Major category: 
LHMP
Wednesday, March 14, 2018 - 07:00

Lesbian Historic Motif Podcast - Episode 49 (previously 21b) - Interview with Alyssa Cole - Transcript

(Originally aired 2018/04/14 - listen here)

Heather Rose Jones: This month The Lesbian Historic Motif Podcast is delighted to have Alyssa Cole as our guest.

Alyssa Cole: Hi, so happy to be here. [laughs]

H: Alyssa is a romance author specializing in historical stories featuring Black protagonists, including a very popular series set during the American Civil War. I see from her bibliography that she also writes contemporaries and at least one series that looks like dystopian science fiction. Alyssa's historicals range from the 16th century up to the 20th century, but the story that led me to beg her to come on the show is That Could Be Enough, one of a trio of linked novellas in a collection titled Hamilton’s Battalion inspired by the musical, Hamilton. Perhaps you could tell us something about the collection, how it came to be written and what inspired the story you contributed to it.

A: Sure. Hamilton’s Battalion was written along with two other authors, two amazing authors, Courtney Milan and Rose Lerner. Courtney is an amazing historical romance author and she also writes contemporary, and Rose is also an amazing historical romance author. We're all friends and I admire their work so much, and we all fell in love with Hamilton. If anyone follows Rose Lerner on Twitter or on Tumblr, they would have seen for a certain period she was talking about Hamilton a lot. She's super into historical research. And Courtney and I were talking, and I had previously done some anthologies focusing on Black American history, romance novellas with a few other authors. Courtney had done some anthologies before, and we were joking around one day and we were like, "Oh, we should do a Hamilton anthology." And then we were like, "Is this a joke? Maybe it's not a joke. And who else could we ask to be in it?" And then we were like, "Rose. Duh! [laughs] Who loves Hamilton more than anyone we know maybe?" So then we asked Rose and we came up with the basic idea that the stories would be linked by Hamilton’s Battalion, which is the name of the anthology itself. So we decided to have each story be somewhat related to Eliza Hamilton's interviews with the soldiers who served under Hamilton. That was just the basic guideline, and then later we decided that there would be a brief framework. But we didn't really go in depth with each other with what our stories would be about. We gave each other the basic blurb for each story, and kind of that's what I find so amazing. That in the end when all three stories were put together, they're kind of this beautiful mosaic of what it means to be American and who is American. And it's not like we sat down and said, "Okay, you're gonna write a male-male story. You're going to write a story about Jewish people..."

H: And they all have some aspect of marginalized identities. I wasn't sure whether that was part of the original plan or just came out of who you are as writers.

A: I think it just came out of who we are as writers. And also, I think what each of us got from Hamilton in a way, which is about the white Founding Fathers, but the play itself features a very diverse cast, diverse music, music drawn from different disciplines primarily hip hop. Each of us, I'm sure, was listening to that soundtrack so many times [laughs]. I actually got to go see Hamilton with Courtney, which was amazing. We basically were both just sitting there trying not to cry and scream. We were in the very last row of the theater. But it was still an amazing show no matter what seat you were in.

H: Yeah, I tell people that it is the only thing I have seen in the last decade that is better than the hype. [laughs]

A: I know! I was like, "Oh, man. What if it doesn't live up to the hype?" And yeah, it's surpassed it by far. So I think it's like somehow the feeling that the show inspired in us, each of us translated it in our own way and wove it into our stories. And so there are similarities in the tone and the characters being marginalized and things like that, but I think that's just because that was something that appealed to each of us on an individual level and then when the anthology came together, it just worked out really well.

H: Yes, and I understand. I have to confess I've only read your story in the collection, but I understand that the characters in each story get little shout-outs tying the whole thing together in the other stories.

A: Yes. After we were done with our original stories, we then kind of-- My story doesn't actually feature someone who was in Hamilton’s battalion. I previously wrote in another anthology, but it's now released as a standalone, a Revolutionary War-set story with a Black hero and a Black heroine. And that story is the heroine has run away. She's a slave who has run away, and she is now in a British camp because the British offered freedom to any enslaved people who had run away from their Patriot masters. The hero is a Black man who is also a slave who is fighting in his master's stead. In return, he will receive his freedom for that. And so they have different ideals and are trying to--They meet and he is captured and becomes a prisoner at the camp. They have their love story. And the heroine in That Could Be Enough is the granddaughter of that hero and heroine. The story is set up that she goes to the interview with Eliza Hamilton and her grandfather who eventually served under Hamilton. She goes to visit Eliza in his stead because he is not feeling great, and that's how she ends up meeting the other heroine of the story.

H: And the other heroine Mercy is serving as secretary for the interviews?

A: Yes. She's a maid who is a free Black woman who is working as a servant in Eliza Hamilton's house, and she can read and write so she is also serving as a secretary in helping with the monumental task of interviewing all these people, compiling all of this information about Hamilton.

H: I want to talk a bit about some of the background research you did. Now obviously, you've written in this era before. But I loved the detailed feel of New York City at that time and your sense for the neighborhoods and the street life. You wanna talk about how you go about researching it, historic periods?

A: Sure. For this book, there were a few books that were extremely helpful. I am going to pull them up on my Kindle now. One, for example, is called Root and Branch: African Americans in New York and East Jersey. It's by Graham Russell Gao Hodges. But there are several books and also several dissertations and research papers about African Americans in colonial New York and also African American women in colonial New York, and women during this time period. I tried to access lots of- If I could find paintings or descriptions, firsthand descriptions of people living in New York. And when I found something in the book that was interesting, I would try to see if there was a note for it and see if I could track down the original information. Like if it was a description from a letter or something of that sort. Part of it was imagination, but part of it was trying to-- And I grew up in New York, so to me this was also a little bit of a love letter to New York because I don't live there anymore. So when I do write about it in my stories, I try to add those little details that would make it feel real for people and for the characters. As far as the research, like trying to get first-hand accounts and just going through all these stories and just the day-to-day activities and then thinking, "Okay, well, if they were doing these activities then there would be these kinds of establishments." Also just from growing up in New York and going to South Street Seaport every weekend where the cobblestone streets and many of the structures are from colonial times that have been preserved or reproductions or... I've always kind of had in the background of my mind the experience and love for colonial New York. Because when you're a kid, it's like, "Oh, cool, the streets are different here and all of the houses look different." And then as you get older you realize, "Oh, okay, there's a lot of history here." My parents were very into taking us to museums and stuff like that. We would go to, for example, the South Street Seaport. You can get on the ships and raise the sails and learn about shipping in colonial times. I didn't retain all of that information that we got on the tours [laughter]. But the basic feel and setting, there are some things that somewhere in the back of my imagination I can draw from some actual experience of walking down these cobblestone streets and seeing what those squat brick buildings look like.

H: Yeah.

A: It's research but also just growing up in the New York area.

H: One of the things I love about New York City is that you can just turn a corner and then sitting there right between a couple of modern skyscrapers, there's a Federalist building just sitting there still surviving.

A: Yes! Yes! [laughs]

H: It's like little Easter eggs all over the place. [Alyssa laughs] So one of the things I loved about the relationship between Mercy and Andromeda in your characters in That Could Be Enough was how grounded it was in the mores of the time. Mercy had some previous bad experiences in relationships with women who couldn't imagine that sort of relationship being permanent or enduring, but the characters didn't have modern views about same-sex love. They didn't have modern psychological anxieties about it. How did you approach developing that part of the story, and was it a challenge to research?

A: It was a bit of a challenge to research. One source I drew up from was the book, Charity and Sylvia: A Same-Sex Marriage in Early America. It's by Rachel Hope Cleves. That book gave a lot of helpful information about kind of how these things were perceived. The overall story follows one woman who was a lesbian and her relationships which were often seen as friendships then sometimes when other people discovered they were more than friendships, they were discouraged or she wasn't allowed to see the women anymore or sometimes women were just like, "Well, I'm moving on with my life." Basically, it's about how eventually when she did meet the woman that she would spend the rest of her life with, they were accepted by their community. That really rang a bell maybe, because I feel like a lot of what I write about when I'm writing historical romances about marginalized people, there's always this kind of idea that-- Well, you can't write a romance about that because how would they be happy? How would they have a happily ever after? And how would they live in this world that was basically designed to be cruel to them? But I think that people forget--when they think about the world, they often forget that the world is made up of small communities or communities small and large rather. And some people can go their entire lives without leaving their community. Or even if they do leave their community and they can come back. And part of their happiness in life particularly I guess in this time period was whether or not you were accepted by your community. And there's this idea that any type of difference was not accepted, but this isn't historically accurate. There's something that me and Courtney were talking about, there's historical average and historical accuracy. On average, people from marginalized groups could be expected to be treated poorly. But that doesn't mean that no one lived happily or no one lived in a community where they were able to live freely and were accepted and have friends and family who were fine. So--

H: Yeah. I think a lot of modern readers simply don't grasp that gender relations were different in the past. That because societies were often very gender-segregated, the idea of two people of the same sex having a close lifelong companionship was utterly normal. And--

A: Yes. [laughs] I researched Boston marriages, which is basically what you were describing. You know, women who would live together and be lifelong friends and work together oftentimes. And it wasn't seen as anything strange. They weren't harassed or anything for that. Because, like you were saying, there was a difference. It wasn't odd.

H: There wasn't an assumption that such relationships were sexual even if they were.

A: Yes, exactly. If people got caught engaging in sexual behavior, that's something different. And again, it was often treated harshly and it was against the law in many places. But again, it depends on the community of people. Even if people think that, they don't particularly care because it's not their business. Or they say, "Hey, as long as it's not hurting me, what's the big deal?" Yeah, sometimes there are very modern ideas of acceptance. Because I feel like we even all had uncles or aunts who didn't explicitly say that they were gay or lesbian. And the family didn't particularly say it but everyone kind of knew. It was just like, "Okay. Well, that's how it is." No one bothered them or talked badly about them. I saw something, the MedievalPOC, which is a site that kind of draws attention to the fact that there have always been people of color in the world. And a lot of it--

H: Yeah, she is an absolutely fabulous researcher and in fact, I dedicated my third novel to her. [Heather and Alyssa laugh]

A: Yes, the research that she does has been so incredibly helpful to so many people. But the other day she tweeted, she shared something. Another person who unfortunately I cannot remember their name retweeted, "And it's called the Tiffany problem."

H: Uh-huh. Yeah.

A: Which is basically that if you had a medieval book and you had someone named Tiffany, people would be like, "What the hell? This is so anachronistic. Why is she named Tiffany?" When in fact Tiffany was a name that existed at that time and it was I think an alternate name to Theofany? But--

H: Theofania, yeah. [Alyssa laughs]

A: So, yeah. So the Tiffany problem I think can apply to so many historicals or basically all historicals with marginalized people who were not miserable and being crapped on and beaten and treated terribly because anytime that happens, people are like, "Oh, was that really going on during that time period?" And the thing that I always kind of go to, or my two go-to responses are; number one, people will happily read a male female romance with two cis white leads where the woman is doing all kinds of, you know, traveling the world or going into Almack’s, or a servant girl talking back to a duke and things like that that are fun to read about but in real life obviously could happen. But historically average, the servant girl who talked back to a duke would not end up being his wife. She would be kicked out or worse. So--[laughs]

H: Yeah, one of the rules I have to remember for myself is never hold my queer historical characters to a higher standard than the straight white ones. [Heather and Alyssa laugh]

A: Yes, I think that would be a good rule for everyone because-- And I think it is hard because we have generally been given-- since we had so much of the same, not the same stories because obviously every romance is different, but kind of overall the same character types which have generally been white and straight. So seeing anyone else in those roles can be jarring. I think it's changing. I think it's slowly changing in people. Even just over the past five years, you can see the change and how receptive people are to these things. And I don't just mean the people who are featured in the book, I think more people are broadening their horizons as they read and saying, "Oh, well, I don't have to read only books that feature people that look like me or who I have always been told could have a happy ending." So hopefully, not slowly. Hopefully, quickly it becomes more accepted.

H: That leads nicely into my next question. As far as I've been able to track down, That Could Be Enough appears to be the only story you've written about a relationship between two women. Do you see yourself tackling another same-sex romance in the future?

A: Yes, I do. Actually, I do have a contemporary one planned for this year likely around Christmas time or early 2019. Because in my contemporary romance coming out--When is that, next week? A Princess in Theory, it's royalty romance. The prince's assistant is a lesbian and she is non-binary. Her thing is that she's a dandy. I don't know if you've seen the African dandies who--And they're called sapeurs if it's a Francophone country. So she usually dresses in men's clothing. And the background of this book, she is kind of having her own romance that doesn't work out. But she will be having her own novella where she gets her happily ever after.

H: Aw, that's sweet. I was noticing your bio says that in addition to being a romance writer, you're a science editor. So how originally did history come into the equation in your life? Has it always been a love of yours? Was there something particular that started you down the road of writing historicals?

A: I was a huge nerd as a child [laughs]. The typical always-reading-a-book. I would get so absorbed in a book that someone could be screaming in my ear and I would not hear them at all. I also was really into the History channel. This is when they used to actually show historical documentaries. Now, I think they show a lot of alien shows and stuff. [laughs] This is when they were having actual historical documentaries, like a lot about World War Two. I think this was when.

H: Yeah, that's back when we called it “the ‘H’ in History Channel was for Hitler.” [Alyssa laughs]

A: Yeah. I haven't written any World War Two stuff but the History Channel is very informative and me being obsessed with war-time conflicts. I loved reading books with history in them. And one of the first romance type books that I loved and that I know I definitely imprinted on [laughs] has shown itself in-- Sometimes when I see the pattern of things I've written, I'm like, "Oh." Especially the Revolutionary War romance, I think I was nine when I first read it. It was in my fourth grade classroom's library. The book is called Ann of the Wild Rose Inn by Jennifer Armstrong, and it is a middle grade romance book. I don't even know if that exists anymore. [Heather and Alyssa laugh] I think they would just be called YA now.

H: Uh-huh.

A: The series is the Wild Rose Inn, and l think it follows one inn in Marblehead, Massachusetts and the girls who lived there in different time periods.

H: Oh, I loved series like that when I was a kid. That was how I learned so much of my history. [Alyssa laughs]

A: Yeah, it was super formative. The romance is between Ann whose family owns the Wild Rose Inn and whose brother is into treason against the crown. [Heather laughs] She falls for a guy she sees at the beach and then he picks up his coat- "No, no. He's a British soldier!"

H: Of course.

A: He's Irish... and things work out in the end.

H: Yeah.

A: [laughs] That was a very formative book for me. Then when I was older, I always loved romance stories and romantic movies. And when I really got into romance novels, I actually started with my mom's Jennifer Crusies that I really loved. When I was younger, I read Danielle Steel and Anne Rice and stuff like that that aren't romance. Then I got into Judith McNaught and- Why am I blanking on her name? Judith McNaught--Julie Garwood. Judith McNaught and Julie Garwood. And just went down a historical rabbit hole. Eventually, I started getting more into- I had stopped reading as much nonfiction, but I started getting into Ta-Nehisi Coates had a blog on The Atlantic.

H: Uh-huh.

A: He talks about a wide variety of things, basically whatever he was interested in, and I got into it cuz I saw when he was talking about a comic book or something. And I was like, "Oh, cool." I just kind of would read it every day, and he started talking about history. And I was like, "Oh, this is an amazing thing!" He was talking about stuff that he had never learned, but it was also stuff that most of us had never learned. This is also around when I was first starting to seriously write romance and I loved historicals. I had always kind of been like, "Well, I can't really write historicals because slavery and people being assholes to other members of the human race." But when I started reading and finding stuff about history and then I would go and find other books about it and do more research about it, I was like, "Oh, okay. Maybe I will write it. I think there's a way it can be done where the bad stuff is addressed but also that is not the only thing that the characters experience, or negative things were not the only things the characters experience. And where marginalized people are able to find happiness because obviously they did because I'm here, my friends are here, and it's possible.

H: Yeah, we don't have to ignore all of the awful things in history but there was always some happiness to find, people found ways to be happy.

A: Yeah. And when I think about that, I think about-- Because I don't live in the US right now even though I do follow everything closely, most of my friends and family live there. It's only been three and a half years or so since I moved. When I see these news reports and all of this terrible stuff in the news, shootings and conspiracies and all of these things... If someone came back even right now, let's say like 50 years from now, someone just picks up the newspaper or scrolls through an archived Twitter feed of current events, they would say, "Wow, this time period was terrible. [laughs] People couldn't leave their houses without fear of getting shot, and women were going through horrible things and being subjugated, and Muslims are being barred from entering the country, and women are having their reproductive rights taken away. You know?

H: Yeah. Yeah.

A: These are the bold strokes of the time period. These are what will stand out years from now. But that doesn't mean that people aren't having fun, aren't living their lives and going to work and finding romance and having weddings and having children and living happily in the midst of all of these things that years from now will seem incomprehensible. [laughs]

H: Yeah. I was wondering if you had any upcoming projects that you'd like to tell the listeners about. I know you mentioned you have a novel coming out soon. What was it, A Princess in Theory?

A: Yes, that's coming out on February 26th.

H: If people wanted to follow you on social media, where would you suggest they find you?

A: I am on Twitter, that's where I usually am. My name is @AlyssaColeLit. I am on Instagram under the same name. And if you like pictures of chickens and dogs, [Heather and Alyssa laugh] you should check it out. I am also on Facebook. I'm not usually on Facebook but I am there and I do check in from time to time.

H: Okay, I'll put that information in the show notes for people to find it. Thank you so much Alyssa for being a guest on The Lesbian Historic Motif Podcast.

A: Oh, and thank you for having me!

Show Notes

A series of interviews with authors of historically-based fiction featuring queer women.

In this episode we talk about:

Links to the Lesbian Historic Motif Project Online

Links to Heather Online

Links to Alyssa Cole Online

Major category: 
LHMP
Monday, March 12, 2018 - 08:00

Any time I'm obsessed with a particular text, I'm likely to spend a fair amount of effort to hunt down as much of the scholarly literature on it as I can. (I don't think I can ever exhaust my interest in commentary on Yde and Olive!) For one thing, lesbian historical studies have something of a history of jumping to lesbian-friendly interpretations of texts or persons, and it can be essential to examine contrary opinions. Clearly I need to track down Susan Lamb's analysis to see what I think of her arguments on Mademoiselle de Richelieu. (It will, of course, have no effect on my irrational fondness for this highly peculiar text.) Every time I read another study of this work, I get excited about the fiction project that it inspired in my imagination. Not the straightforward novelization that I first conceived, but something of a time-slip story, overlaying the original fiction with a pair of modern characters that include a woman studying the text. So many writing projects, so little time!

Major category: 
LHMP
Full citation: 

Gonda, Caroline. 2006. “Lesbian Narrative in the Travels and Adventures of Mademoiselle de Richelieu” in British Journal of Eighteenth-Century Studies 29, no. 2: 191-200.

Gonda examines the rather peculiar mid-18th century text The Travels and Adventures of Mademoiselle de Richelieu within the context of cross-dressing narratives and as a lesbian-like narrative (she doesn’t use that specific term), as well as comparing it with its highly abridged knock-off The Entertaining Travels and Surprizing Advenrures of Mademoiselle de Leurich.

Mlle. de Richelieu is an eclectic and peculiar text, including numerous digressions on hereditary monarchy, religion, philosophy, various types of literature, and travel narratives, as well as the core picaresque adventure retained in Mlle. de Leurich that Gonda concisely sums up thus: “The narrator/heroine Alithea de Richelieu dresses as a man, calls herself the Chevalier de Radpont, and goes around Europe flirting with women, mostly avoiding duels with men, hearing love-stories and scandals from the people she meets. ... [N]o one sees through her disguise, but she reveals her true sex to the charming widow Arabella, who is delighted by the revelation and becomes her inseparable companion: Alithea and Arabella, both dressed as men (and accompanied by their maids, Lucy and Diana, cross-dressed as their valets de chambre), wreak havoc in women’s hearts in Italy, Spain, and Portugal before returning to France (by way of England and the Low Countries), resuming their female dress and identities and settling down together, six months a year in Paris and six months in the country.”

Gonda summarizes some of the past literature on this text. Carolyn Woodward concludes that the heterogenous text is what allows and conceals the transgressive nature of the content. Susan Lamb views it as an anti-feminist satire, especially with its repeated emphasis on how two women cannot consummate their relationship, and suggests that it may instead be a gender-flipped account of a male homoerotic couple. Susan Lanser identifies it as “sapphic picaresque” and considers the homoerotic content bound up in the adventure setting.

The anonymous authorship contributes to the ability to postulate such different readings. The text presents itself as a translation (which might hypothetically explain some of the internal dissonances) but there is no corroborating evidence that it actually was originally in French as claimed. Lanser views the incongruities as part and parcel of the inherent queerness of the text.

Within the general context of “transvestite narratives” Mlle de Richelieu breaks convention. Joseph Harris’s study of 17th c French cross-dressing stories notes that they only temporarily challenge gender roles, returning to the status quo at the end, often by means of marriage. The conclusion of such narratives typically coincides with the revelation of the cross-dresser’s “true sex”. In contrast, it is Alithea’s revelation of her true sex to Arabella that initiates their travels together.

Another contrast with the texts that Harris studied is Alithea and Arabella’s continual flirtation with homoerotic desire, in contrast to the more usual situation where homoeroticism (though expected in the text) arises from an unwitting female admirer agressively pursuing the more restrained and avoidant cross-dresser. (The exception being texts where the cross-dresser is using her disguise to distract a female rival through feigned seduction.)

Alithea and Arabella, in contrast, regularly seek out women to court and flirt with, though they always draw back at the end. Gonda notes that the use of “whim” or “whimsical” in this context can be seen as an 18th century code word for lesbian desire. As when Arabella says of Alithea, “that unaccountable Whim of yours, of dabbling in Amours and Gallantry” as well as many other similar references in the text. “Unaccountable” is another keyword in contexts of female homoeroticism.

Arabella and Alithea also break the pattern of the “female husband” narrative, which is based on a sort of butch-femme model. Rather than embodying a gender contrast, they are both simultaneously butch (when traveling together in male disguise) or simultaneously femme (when they eventually settle down to live together as women).

It is not Alithea’s masculinity that secures Arabella’s desire, but her revelation of her female identity, uncovering her breasts, at which Arabella embraces her “with transports rather of a lover than of a friend.” Their erotic response to each other is intensified by the contrast between their public (male) appearance and their knowledge of their private (female) identity. Alithea, having initiated the cross-dressing adventure and encouraged Arabella in the game of flirtation with women, becomes obsessed and jealous of Arabella’s success at the game and women’s resposne to her.

Although one might see (as Susan Lamb suggests) a shadow of a male homosocial bond--two men as comrades using their flirtations with women as a way of intensifying their friendship--the text itself addresses this, showing male comradeship as false and dangerous.

The two women joke regularly about their attractiveness to women and egg each other on, ghost-writing letters for each other to the women they toy with and describing the imagined desire those women have for their comrade. When speaking directly of each other’s charms, it is typically in a projected male voice, imagining how a man would react (or how each of them would react as a man). They do not reject the possibility of desire for a woman, but rather make it possible to experss their desire for each other by voicing it as an imagined man.

The language in which they imagine the desire of men for women (it makes the men happy) stands in contrast to how they imagine women’s desire for men (it is a threat, a curse, foolish). Thus, they conclude that the idea of love is for a woman to be in love with a cross-dressed woman for she can enjoy the joys of love without being betrayed and disappointed by the “dull brutal conclusion” of heterosexual sex.

This theme is elaborated in one of the many digressions, this one involving yet another cross-dressing woman that Alithea is attracted to, not knowing the woman’s true sex, but only appreciating her “effeminate delicacy.” This woman, Miss Courbon, is in disguise to escape a forced marriage. She and Alithea encounter each other, each beliving the other a man, resulting in an unsettled reaction in Alithea who considers it out of character for her to be attracted to a man. It isn’t until Alithea is made aware of Miss Courbon’s true sex that Alithea enters enthusiastically into a flirtation. (Susan Lamb notes that the location in Paris where the two first encounter each other was a notorious cruising ground for male homosexuals, which contributes to her theory about authorship. The nature of the location is not touched on the text itself.) This episode occurs early in the text (pre-Arabella) and is the first of Alithea’s flirtations to be described, establishing the pattern that her affairs with women occur in the context of dual cross-dressing.

Thoughout the text, women who allow themselves to be seduced by men habitually suffer as a result. Miss Courbon eventually is one such, with the negative consequences described in more detail than others. Miss Courbon follows a more typical cross-dressing narrative: disguise for the purpose of avoiding forced marriage, inadvertent attraction between women, shift attraction to a man and resume a female presentation, get married. In the conventional cross-dressing narrative, this is the desired conclusion. Here, the rejection of that narrative is seen as making her fate tragic.

While Mlle. de Richelieu breaks with the French transvestite-story conventions, it also fails to follow British conventions for this genre. The pattern in 18th century British fiction is for the cross-dressing woman either to be re-confined in heterosexual domesticity, or punished harshly for her transgression of gender norms.

In the conclusion, Mlle. de Richelieu creates a “double vision” where Alithea and Arabella can be seen either as a “happily ever after” lesbian romantic conclusion, or as a displacement and denial of lesbian desire, always projecting it onto other women.

Time period: 
Sunday, March 11, 2018 - 17:57

I know I've mentioned it before, but I do love having a local book-centered convention that is literally a ten minute drive away. Bonus points for the Walnut Creek Marriott having a lobby-cum-bar that is absolutely ideal for socializing in. Except for one brief, minor bout of social anxiety when I didn't have a dinner group lined up for Saturday evening. ot was all good. (Note: I will leave some meals deliberately not pre-arranged to give myself the opportunity to meet up with people spontaneously who I might not feel comfortable approaching for specific arrangements. And that's exactly what happened in this case, once I'd determined to bluff it out and settled myself into an empty table in the lobby traffic zone.)

Great high-energy presentations from Honored Guests Andrea Hairston and Ada Palmer. This year I got to the late night comedy "liars' panel" (improv tall tales in response to moderator questions) which was a hoot.

I was on three program items. The early Saturday morning panel on Faust and his literary offspring had great attendance (given the time) and (if I may say so) great synergy among the panelists. We talked about the various versions of the Faust story itself, its uses in other works, what the parameters of a "Faust-type story" might be, and what the various versions of the story say about attitudes towards knowledge and/or pleasure. Was Faust the hero of his own story? And in the end was he damned or redeemed?

My first panel, on Friday afternoon, was on meta-fiction: the use of narrative within the narrative, or of cross-boundary interactions between audience, author, and content. Lots of examples of different types of meta-fictions (including a discussion of whether 1st and 2nd person narrativion is itself inherently a meta-narrative). I got to talk a little bit about meta-narrative in Mother of Souls and how the creation of the Tanfrit opera enabled the characters to critique and analyze their attitudes towards their own invisible character arcs.

My third panel was a fairly open-ended discussion on the romance genre as an antidote to the despair of living in a dystopic society. (It was one of two romance panels, the other being the somewhat misleadingly named "Bonkers Romance" talking about plots and tropes that would be hard to get away with anywhere other than that genre. I was in the audience for that one and got to hear my own books being recommended--in all sincerity since the recommender hadn't connected them with me!) I did feel a bit out of place on occasion in the "Romance for the End of the World" panel because the discussion routinely slipped into the assumption that every romance plot has a man in it somewhere (either as m/f or m/m), as well as a regular conflation of romance with erotica. Still a fun discussion, just occasionally a bit alienating.

I've kept meaning to volunteer to be more involved in the running of FOGCon, and since they put out a plea for more people to get involved at the closing roundup, I put my metaphorical hand up once more. (I triedt to volunteer a few years ago and nothing came of it, but they may have had plenty of people back then.)

And then here I am back home, with no jet lag and another hour of daylight.

Major category: 
Conventions
Saturday, March 10, 2018 - 08:43

Lesbian Historic Motif Podcast - Episode 44 (previously 20b) - Interview with Elizabeth Bear - Transcript

(Originally aired 2018/03/10 - listen here)

Heather Rose Jones: Today, the Lesbian Historic Motif Project is delighted to host Elizabeth Bear. Elizabeth is a prolific writer of both fantasy and science fiction and particularly known for historically inspired fantasies such as the Silk Road Eternal Sky series, the New Amsterdam series which is alternate history with sorcery, too many more to discuss in detail, but also the two books that particularly inspired me to invite her on the show: Karen Memory and its sequel that has just been released Stone Mad, which take place in the steampunk Pacific Northwest late 19th century.

Back in 2005, she won the John W. Campbell Award for Best New Fantasy and Science Fiction Author, and she's won a couple of Hugo Awards for Short Fiction plus other honors that would take a while to list through. Welcome, Elizabeth.

Elizabeth Bear: Hi, I'm glad to be here.

H:  So, why don't you start by telling us a little bit about Karen Memory and Stone Mad and how you came to write them?

E: [Laughter] Well, it's actually one of those funny and convoluted stories because it turns out that adult but YA-friendly American steampunk novel with a 16-year-old lesbian protagonist was apparently hard to get through to the marketing people. [Laughter] Initially, I was solicited to write a – well, not write but submit a proposal for a Young Adult novel with a lesbian protagonist. I thought about it for a while, and I was talking with a friend of mine about it. Her name happens to be Karen, and, you know, she sort of tossed me the softball that made Karen's voice and the first line of the novel pop into my head.

H: Which is a very iconic line.

E: It's, “You ain't gonna like what I've got to tell you, but I'm gonna tell you anyway,” so that's why Karen is named Karen. She's named after my friend. I wrote the first 15,000 words of the novel, and I wrote a proposal up and sent it in, and it was soundly rejected, rejected left and right. [Laughter]

H: Do you suppose maybe a 16-year-old lesbian prostitute was maybe hard to swallow for the YA market?

E: You know when I initially pitched it, when I had the discussion with the editor who solicited it, they thought it was a great idea. I think sometimes – I think people were a little doubtful about Karen's voice among other things and because that she's a first-person narrator, and her voice is so intrinsic to my ability to write her. I don't write Karen's stories and then like run them through the Encheferizer [Laughter] to get her voice. They come out her voice, or they don't come out at all. Often, what I have to do is go back and edit out pages and pages and pages of digressions, usually about food. [Laughter] She likes her groceries.

So, this was back in 2009, and I took – I think it was the first 7,000 words or so of what I had written and turned it into a short story for a steampunk western anthology, a Weird West Anthology that John Joseph Adams put together. I wrote the Eternal Sky novels for my Tor editor Beth Meacham. When I had handed the last one in, she was like, “What do you want to do next?” and I'm like, “I don't really know. What do you want to see from me?” and she said, “Well, there was that YA pitch. Is there any reason why it has to be a YA?” and I'm like, “No, I mean it's going to be a 16-year-old protagonist with a fairly straightforward voice,” so she convinced me to try writing it as an adult novel. It's still quite YA friendly, I think. It certainly, at least, a lot of young readers seem to enjoy it.

It all kind of just came out of me in a rush. I think possibly because it had been, at that point, sitting there in the back of my head stewing for five years. The story had been there growing without being disturbed, so when I actually sat down to write it, I wrote it, I think four or five months.

I just had a wonderful time writing it. I had a wonderful time with the – one of the things that I like about the Karen Memory world is that it's more on the scientific end of steampunk. Many steampunk novels have things like vampires or sorcerers or…

H:  Yeah.

E:  In fact, my other steampunk or gaslit fantasy series has magic and sorcery in it. The New Amsterdam books that you mentioned, and this one doesn't have any magic. It doesn't. It has super engineering, and it has cryptozoological creatures. So, this is a world where like jackalopes are real and, you know, like all the creatures that show up in in tall tales of the Wild West are real. There are chupacabras out there somewhere sucking on goats. [Laughter]

Setting those constraints for myself meant that I had to think up, at least, like comic book technological explanations for everything, which was a lot of fun. You know, I grew up on Jules Verne and H. G. Wells the same as everybody else did.

H:  Yeah, the influences from Verne were really obvious in it.

E: Yeah. Well, one of the things I love about 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea is that if you actually read – which is actually kind of hard to get your hands on – if you read a complete version of the novel, it's got really strong anti-colonial aspects to it because Nemo is a British subject from the Indian subcontinent who is fighting against the British overlords. He has a motivation! [Laughter]

H: Yeah.

E: Which doesn't show up in a lot of the movies and the edited versions of the book somehow.

H: Funny thing.

E: Funny thing! Funny thing how that gets taken out. Anyway, so, yeah, I mean that aspect is obviously very strong in there. The second novel, Stone Mad, it's a very, very short novel. It is just over the legal limit at like 40,000 words. So, it's being published through Tor.com's novella program because they have the infrastructure to do it, basically, but it is technically a novel, kind of. [Laughter] I've decided that what I want to do with this series because I do have above three more stories I want to tell in it right now.

H: Oh, I'm sure.

E: I’m sure I will think of more is – I think it would be neat to do longer works that are sort of more complicated murder mystery type objects and shorter works that are almost a little, I don't want to say, you know, that they're almost sort of self-fanfic like –

H: Well, no, I know exactly what you mean.

E: Like, almost, just a fun little side story.

H: I have a bunch of those to write for my series where it really does feel like I'm writing fanfic of my own work.

E: Yeah, and you know but there's nothing wrong with that. Why do the fans get to write all the fun bits? [Laughter] I want to write my protagonist and her girlfriend going out to dinner and getting into trouble. That's maybe not a novel plot, but it's certainly a very fun side story plot.

H: Yup.

E: I guess that's it, you know? I mean I'm delighted to be writing these. My intention with them is that each one is going to be a story that can be read all by itself, and I want them to be – my friend Sarah Monette who also writes as Katherine Addison, who wrote The Goblin Emperor is her most well-known work, makes a distinction between clair and noir as modes of storytelling. Noir is, you know, what we might term grimdark these days but just where the underlying presentment of how the world works is cynical and brutal and nothing will ever turn out right and you'll never be happy. That's not the world I want to write when I'm writing about Karen. I want to put her in – she's an optimistic person, and I want to put her in an optimistic world, not where bad things never happen and people never get hurt because, obviously, they do but –

H: But where there's a hope that things will come out well.

E: There's a hope that things will come out well and people can recover from trauma within reasonable limits. Obviously, if somebody drops a house on you…

H: Yeah.

E: [Laughter] So finding that balance of gee-whiz action adventure, and a little bit of romance and a little bit of fun, and also making it a serious story about a serious character who experiences character growth, but it doesn't have to be that kind of, “And then I had a huge epiphany and realized why I had been goofing up my life,” [Laughter] because she hasn't, really.

H: Yeah.

E: She's had a rough life, but she's a very capable person. That's fun to write.

H: So the setting in the sort of – it's a Pacific Northwest clearly but not a specific place although I got kind of a mixed Portland-Seattle vibe out of it.

E: I was going for sort of mixed San Francisco-Seattle. I've never actually been to Portland. I’m sorry. I keep trying to go, and it doesn't work out. [Cross-talk] Portland, I'm coming!

H: Am I remembering correctly that you were living in Seattle at one point?

E: No, I visited it several times in quick succession and I've taught Clarion West a couple of times.

H: Okay, that must be what I'm remembering.

E: Yes, Cherie Priest was living in Seattle. I went out and bothered her once but – [Laughter]

H: So what was the attraction of that particular setting?

E: I mean it's physically beautiful for one thing. The history of the Northwestern U.S. is fascinating, and complicated, and gets extensively sort of – I mean like most of the history of the American West it does have a real tendency to get whitewashed and normed and, really, that part of the world during that time was where all the dregs washed up.

As I proudly identify myself as a dreg [Laughter] by middle American standards anyway or by, I should say by 19th century middle American standards, it allowed me to talk about a lot of people that history generally overlooks, and ignores, and erases. Seattle literally was—actually Seattle and San Francisco both in a lot of ways—literally were built on the backs of prostitution, that the working girls, the parlor girls, were taxed $50.00 a week. That's a lot of money in 1860 [Laughter] which tells you how well they were doing, at least, the ones on the upper end of the trade. That was the tax base so—and one of the things I love about Seattle is that they just admit this.

There was a woman of whom there is a fictionalized—I did not use the real Mother Damnable in Karen Memory; however, there is a character called Madame Damnable who is heavily inspired by the real Mother Damnable who was one of Seattle's founding mothers as it were and was, in fact, at one point running a whorehouse out of the upstairs of her two-floor house and town hall out of the first floor, [Laughter] literally.

Having been given that sort of coincidence of history and of frequently—I'm trying to think of the word I want here – of frequently marginalized people who nevertheless had a huge impact on society, that was what I wanted to talk about.

H: Yeah, and that actually leads into one of the questions I had prepared which you've already answered part of, but what I had come up with is that one of the things I loved in Karen Memory was how you wove in people and situations that are solidly part of history but weaving them in in ways that people might mistake for fictional elements. I'm thinking of things like the character of Bass Reeves, and the significant ethnic diversity without glossing over any of the racism, the diversity of gender and sexuality in a context where readers might find that surprising, and the utterly bonkers politics. So were those things that were part of the inspiration for the story in the first place, or were there things that you turned up while researching?

E: Well, Bass Reeves is the only real historical character in the book who is there as himself and not as a “This person inspired me to create a fictional character who is in some way their ‘structural descendant’ I guess,” but Bass Reeves was a real dude. He was a U.S. marshal who was an escaped slave who worked in the Indian territory, which is now Oklahoma. I have him somewhat off his patch for the purposes of this story.

He was obviously a black man, and he is, I believe, he still holds the record for the most warrants served and fugitives returned, and that's more than 100 years later. This guy was a badass not to put too fine a point on it. He also had like 23 kids—yeah, I know, when did he find the time, right?

He is probably the inspiration for the lone ranger. I had wanted to make more people aware of this guy's existence, and so I had the opportunity in this story since I have a serial killer running around Seattle, why not bring the lone ranger in to solve the mystery?

H: Sure.

E: Make it the real lone ranger. Then, of course, he had to have Comanche possemen, and I wanted to try to do a more honorable version, more honorable job of presenting a real human being and not…

H: Just a sidekick?

E: A stereotypical Indian sidekick, yes, exactly. So, I wound up doing a lot of research on that and on the state of Indian affairs in the 1870s in the U.S. which is just depressing and horrible and not a story in which—it's a genocide. I mean there's no way to put any finer point on it than that. It's the story of a genocide, so there becomes a real challenge in talking about that stuff and being honest about it but also being honest about the fact that people in terrible conditions still have to live their lives. People in terrible conditions are not defined by their victimhood or don't have to be. You don't have to perform—society has a certain number of set roles for people who have been traumatized, and you are expected to perform one of those roles.

As somebody who has PTSD, I find that very irritating because I would like to see more representation of a wider range of characters like me. This makes me assume that other people who are not widely represented in fiction would like to see more representation of a wider range of characters who are like them, who are not the same two stereotypes.

H: Uh-huh, a lot of your fiction is rooted in history but takes off in new directions so not only in terms of adding fantastic elements sometimes but tweaking the direction of history to different pathways. What's the particular appeal to you of that type of story generally? Are historic settings something you've always loved or did just sort of arise out of the writing?

E: Well, I'm a terrible historian. I tried to write one actual historical novel which is The Stratford Man which was published in two volumes as Ink and Steel and Hell and Earth. I know it’s exhausting. It was so much work. I did the whole Tim Powers thing. I had timelines, and I had calendars with historical events written on them and fictional events written on them. I had to move something by one day for reasons of pacing, and I felt terrible about it. I’m like, “I'm just never doing this to myself again.” [Laughter]

H: So that definitely explains the diverging from history part of it.

E: Yeah, I'm done with being faithful to history. It's too much work. I'm going to leave that to people who like that sort of thing. I mean I love reading it. I love reading a good secret history but, wow, so much… And the thing is that no matter—nobody agrees about anything. I spent five days trying to research whether Shakespearean actors used stage paint and I finally—I could not find any research on this. I finally decided based on stage directions that they must. There's a line in Shakespeare, “Enter Rumor, painted in tongues,” if that's all he needs to say about it, “painted in tongues,” then obviously stage makeup is a thing that everybody's familiar with, and this is not a radical new idea.

Anyway, but I digress, I also feel like there are some of my books that are really very ahistorical that may be inspired by a time period, or a historical pattern, or a cultural pattern. I was trained as an anthropologist and often what I get my inspiration from is cultural patterns and cultural development rather than actual history. People will try to force it into a historical mold. My Eternal Sky books are about as ahistorical as any Western fantasy. They have no more basis in historical reality of the Mongolian steppes and the Middle and Far East than Game of Thrones does in 13th century Ireland and England.

H: But I guess that answers my question is that you are attracted to cultures and playing with cultures as opposed to being attracted to historical events and playing with those.

E: Well, trying very hard not to appropriate other people's cultures but sort of look at the logical structures of how a culture develops and why it happens that way and come up with a thing that follows a similar logical structure, does that make sense?

H: Yeah, yeah.

E: I think that there are a lot of fantasists who do the same thing, but then they'll say, “Oh, I'm writing Celtic fantasy,” and I'm like your Celtic fantasy has absolutely nothing to do with real Celtic society.

H: Yeah. [Laughter] Well, and a lot of the people—

E: [Cross-talk] just cop to the fact that, “No, I made this up.”

H: Yeah, a lot of medieval fantasy is the same. It's like, “Oh, this is a medieval fantasy,” but nothing like anything I've ever studied.

E: Yeah or Norse fantasy which is—I've written a fair amount of Norse-inspired fantasy and Norse-inspired techno-fantasy because I am a child of the 80s. This is not a saga. I am not telling you a true story about something that happened to people a thousand years ago. I am making a lot of stuff up, and, yes, it does have trolls in it. I did borrow your trolls.

H: So I'm interested also, specifically, in how writers develop the presentation of marginalized sexualities in their historic settings. I mean the name of the podcast kind of leads to that point. Is this something where you base the characters on known historical situations, or individuals, or on general research, or just what felt fit right to you?

E: Often, I do… I mean I grew up in a queer family, and I'm queer myself. Because of that, I have never lived in a world that didn't have queer people in it, and so when I was—I actually just wrote a Patreon post about this. When I was a young person reading science fiction, discovering books that actually had queer people in them unremarkably, Diane Duane in particular The Door Into… series, I think that was the first book I ever encountered as a young reader in which I opened it and here's a young prince riding off to rescue his beloved, another young prince, who is trapped in a tower. It's just treated totally naturally and I'm like, “This is amazing. This is like people I know.”

I still remember that visceral sense of not feeling ostracized from the fiction I loved, and I want to give other people that sense of, “Here is a place where you are welcome,” obviously, but I also feel like we do have a real tendency to write historical characters as if they were living in the modern world and writing—I mean the concept of heterosexuality and homosexuality is only about 150 years old, if that.

When I'm writing characters in Elizabethan England who are same gender attracted or attracted to a panoply of genders or whatever it is that's their particular thing, they're not thinking about it in terms of, “Well, I'm gay,” or “I'm straight,” or “I'm bisexual.” They're thinking about it in terms of “This is a homosexual act,” not, “I am a homosexual person,” so the construction of identity is very different. That was a thorny thing to wrestle with while trying to acknowledge that while not saying anything that could be interpreted as, “Well, homosexuality is not a valid identity,” because, of course, it is. Because sexuality is a social construct and so is identity, that doesn't make them not real. Money is a social construct.

H: Exactly.

E: Corporations are a social construct.

H: But there's a tricky aspect there where heterosexuality was not a valid historic concept either and yet—

E: Exactly.

H: —nobody ever questions or challenges that if you're writing heterosexual characters so…

E: Bingo, exactly. Obviously, I believe that there is a spectrum of desire and people are attracted to whom they are attracted to for various reasons including gender but that the—so the construct of that is a real thing versus the identity of, “Well, I'm a heterosexual.”

H: Yeah, and what to expect to do with that desire is, of course, very socially constructed.

E: Exactly, absolutely. Yeah, that's a real challenge. It's also a real challenge to write characters in the same time frame or same setting who come from different cultures and have different ideas of what gender and sexuality are. Of course, many of these are so different from our own constructions and yet I want to feel welcoming to modern readers who read my books.

H: Yes, exactly.

E: It's so challenging.

H: It's a really tricky balance point.

E: Yeah, exactly. Man, people are complicated. [Laughter]

H: So, as we've said, your new book Stone Mad will be out by the time this podcast airs, and people should go pick it up and read it. If they haven't read Karen Memory before, they should read that, too, although you say they both stand alone. What other current projects or upcoming projects do you have that our listeners might be interested in?

E: Today I am finishing the final structural and narrative edit on a book called Ancestral Night that I am super, super, super excited about. It will be out next year, 2019, from Gallant in the U.K. and Saga in the U.S. It is a big idea sprawling old school exploration of space opera whose protagonist is a lesbian salvage tug engineer with terrible taste in women. [Laughter]

H: That sounds like our listeners will probably like that one.

E: Terrible, I like that so bad. [Laughter] So, that's relevant to this podcast.

H: Yes.

E: After that, I need to start serious drafting work on a book called The Red-Stained Wings which is the next book in the second Eternal Sky trilogy. The first book is The Stone in the Skull which was out last October and just made the Locus Recommended Reading List.

H: Yay!

E: That one's pretty thoroughly queer, too, I have to say. I was playing around with the ideas of what sort of societies might have developed in an analog to the Indus River Valley which is one of the places where agriculture first arose, agriculture and aqueducts, and counting, and written language, possibly, and a bunch of other stuff first arose. We know almost nothing about the people who lived there because time.

Because I have this big tapestry in the Eternal Sky world, I wanted to move there and tell a set of stories about those people, and they're having a basically a little internecine cousin versus cousin, the empire has collapsed, war over resources because some of them have fertile farmland and some don't. Then catastrophic geologic events start happening which is, of course, always makes your border skirmishes better.

H: Yeah, shakes up your characters very nicely.

E: Yeah, yeah.

H: Makes things happen.

E: So that's my next big project that I actually have to write as opposed to editing.

H: Uh-huh, so if one of our listeners wanted to follow you on social media and keep up with what you're doing what would you suggest? I know you have a Patreon where you sometimes post stories.

E: I do. I am @matociquala everywhere, m-a-t-o-c-i-q-u-a-l-a. I actually don't currently have a dedicated website because it needed to be revamped completely, and I took it down, and then life happened so elizabethbear.com will currently just take you to my Patreon. That's the easiest way to get there. I’m @matociquala on Twitter, and I'm @matociquala on Instagram. I have a very neglected Facebook page, Facebook fan page, so if you want really, really intermittent updates, there's that. I also have a tiny newsletter on an erratic basis which is also @matociquala.

H: Once upon a time, you had a LiveJournal, but I don't know if that got dropped somewhere in the great LiveJournal migration.

E: It is all still mirrored on Dreamwidth, and there's a lot of, “How I learned how to write,” back there which might be a useful resource, but I have not—I started that blog because—actually it was Neil Gaiman's fault although he doesn't know this. He wrote a post on his blog about why his blog wasn't about writing, and it was a very funny post. Then I realized that I wanted to read that blog. I wanted to read as somebody who was at that point trying to, had just sold my first professional short story, and was trying to write a novel that would sell. I wanted that blog, so I decided to write it. I wrote it. I kept it going for 10 years, 2003 through 2013 plus intermittent updates afterwards. I think the last one was probably about a year ago, but then I realized that I'm still learning stuff about writing. I don't think you ever stop, but all of the stuff I'm learning about writing now is no longer generally applicable. It's how I fix this one particular sentence, and I have no idea how to blog about that or if it would be useful to anybody. Also, I sort of ran out of time.

H: Yeah, yeah, I know that well.

E: That's the other thing.

H: So I'll include links to all of these places to find you in the show notes, and thank you so much for sharing your time with the Lesbian Historic Motif Podcast.

E: Good, thank you for giving me this opportunity. This has been so much fun.

Show Notes

A series of interviews with authors of historically-based fiction featuring queer women.

In this episode we talk about:

  • Elizabeth’s upcoming steampunk novel Stone Mad, an independent sequel to Karen Memory. Set in an alternate late 19th century Pacific Northwest, Karen navigates her way past murderers, corrupt politicians, and arcane conspiracies the help of a steam-powered armored sewing machine, the other denizens of the disreputable Hôtel Mon Cherie, and her girlfriend Priya.
  • How Karen Memory started out as a YA novel and what happened next
  • The importance of voice in how the stories developed
  • The roots of the world in Verne, Wells, and actual history
  • Future stories involving Karen Memory
  • The difference between writing grim versus hopeful worlds, even when bad things happen to your characters
  • The social, historical, and political context of the Pacific Northwest that made it a perfect story setting
  • Basing stories on cultural patterns as opposed to events, and why Elizabeth doesn’t write actual historical fiction
  • Elizabeth’s early experiences discovering SFF with queer characters and the importance of representation in fiction
  • Books mentioned

Links to the Lesbian Historic Motif Project Online

Links to Heather Online

Links to Elizabeth Bear Online

Major category: 
LHMP
Friday, March 9, 2018 - 11:00

I guess it doesn't help to have an "upcoming events" feature on my website if I don't fill in my schedule until I'm actually at the event! (Only remembered to make my hotel reservation two days ago, for that matter.) Fortunately, when you're dealing with a convention that's literally 10 miles down the road, being a bit discombobulated has fewer consequences.

In any event, here I am at FOGCon. I'll be on several programming items today and tomorrow, talking about things like meta-fiction, the inherent feminist nature of romance novels, and Faustian bargains.

Major category: 
Conventions
Thursday, March 8, 2018 - 07:42

Lately I've been thinking about a topic in the general field of literary gatekeeping. To some extent, these thoughts were inspired by my new venture as a contributing book reviewer at The Lesbian Review. One of the reasons Sheena has been urging me to join the reviewers there is that they didn't have anyone who specialized in historical fiction, so for the most part, historical fiction simply wasn't getting reviewed. And since historicals are a favorite genre of mine...

But when you think about it, that's a big responsibility: to be the primary reviewer for a specific genre at a review venue. Historicals are only one of the genres I read (I'll be reviewing other things for TLR as well--probably mostly mainstream books with lesbian protagonists). And I'm not a prolific reader, not in comparison to most professional reviewers. (Though I have to remember that when the reviewers you hang out with include people like James Nicoll and Liz Bourke, you can get a skewed notion of reviewer reading prowess!) So that means that even with the relatively small size of the lesbian historical fiction output (and it hadn't really hit me how small it is until I started putting together the forthcoming books segement for my podcast), I'm going to be filtering what I read (and therefore what I review) based on my own idiosyncratic tastes.

That means that there are topics and subgenres within lesbian historical fiction that probably won't get reviewed for TLR at all simply because I'm not reviewing them. For example, I'm less interested in reading 20th century historicals, not very interested in the most popular formula for American western/frontier stories, and not really interested in books with significant erotic content. As an individual reader, that's just my taste. But as a reviewer, that filters out some significant market segments. It's neither fair nor right, but it's a thing.

The Lesbian Review isn't the only review site that has this sort of de facto gatekeeping. For example, I love reading the reviews and columns at Smart Bitches Trashy Books (a general romance review site). Although historical romance is a major interest of the site, and although there are occasional reader requests for recommendations for f/f historical romance there, the sole SBTB reviewer who specializes in lesbian romance isn't interested in historicals. So they don't get reviewed. And one of the unintended consequences of that is that the reader threads asking about lesbian historical romance have the mistaken impression that there's essentially none being published. It's not only an inadvertent gatekeeping of publicity, but an inadvertent gatekeeping of knowledge itself. Similarly, review venues that cover the whole LGBTQ spectrum but have a single reviewer to represent the entirety of L fiction are going to reflect that one person's specific reading tastes. (And I can pretty much guarantee you that those tastes will be contemporary romance.)

Any time that access to a field goes through a single person, we can get the illusion of representation without the reality. This is a constant issue in discussions of diversity in the book world, whether it's the one POC agent at a literary agency or the one "diverse book" on a publisher's line-up. By definition, a single access point cannot be "diverse" and a full sense of the field requires triangulation from multiple viewpoints. But the effect can't be laid on the shoulders of that single access point. Each agent, each reviewer, each acquisitions editor (each writer for that matter) can and should reflect the things they absolutely love. What the world needs is more loves--more different loves from different angles.

This isn't a critique of the venues that host those single-point inadvertent gatekeepers. Especially in the field of book reviews, the work is mostly done as a labor of love. It's a field where "shoulds" can kill any interest in continuing at all. Rather, it's a caution to consumers. Never assume that what you see is all there is to get. Never narrow your information sources down to a single venue. Because you're going to miss some great books that way. I know I do.

Major category: 
Thinking
Tuesday, March 6, 2018 - 08:06

Other than my fairly rigid schedule of LHMP posts and the Bingo series, my blog spreadsheet tells me I haven't posted much in the last couple of weeks. Sometimes all the overlapping deadlines and commitments conspire to knock out the time I'd normally spend brainstorming blogs. In the present case, it's been a combination of scrambling to get some LHMP material together, all of my investigations at work going from "waiting on someone else to do something" to "you need to get this turned around right now," and spending half of last week serving my jury duty--the first time in my life I've actually been selected for a trial that went to completion. The jury duty was a fascinating experience. I was satisfied with our verdict, though left angry by some of the events we needed to rule on. And I was unprepared for how exhausting it was to alternate between waiting around for things to happen with paying very intense concentration to the testimony. Most exhausting was the hour or so spent in deliberations (especially since I sort of volunteered/was volunteered to be foreman). I've blogged in detail about the experience on my Dreamwidth account, but I'm afraid it's only accessible if we're mutuals there. (I don't lock Dreamwidth posts very often, but I wanted a layer of privacy for some of what I was talking about.)

So since I don't have new and interesting thoughts to post here today, I figured I'd cheerlead about some recent and upcoming stuff, just as a reminder:

  • Lace and Blade 4 is out! With a new Alpennia story about Jeanne de Cherdillac! Anthologies often get overlooked in the flood of great new books coming out, so if you enjoy the stories (and especially if you enjoy mine), it would mean a lot if you dropped a review on Goodreads and/or Amazon.
  • The Lesbian Historic Motif Podcast's brand new original fiction series will debut this month! I'm so excited about this new venture and I've lined up a really great story to kick it off. The fiction series is a massive experiment, not only for the podcast, but for lesbian historical fiction in general. There's been a lot of buzz recently on twitter contrasting all the people who say they're looking for good lesbian historicals with the experiences of those of us who write them. The biggest hurdle is simply getting the word out about where to find the stories. So I hope that, if people enjoy the story--or even simply enjoy the idea of lesbian historical podcast fiction--you'll spread the word and encourage others to listen. Can we get a wave going here that can help lift up the field in general?
  • My 2018 Lesbian Book Bingo Challenge story series is up to five episodes so far! Although I'm doing the series in part to have a more interesting way of promoting the Book Bingo event, there's a certain satisfaction loosing an actual new piece of fiction into the world every two weeks. Follow the intertwined adventures of what will be a fairly extensive cast of characters navigating their lives and loves in the chaotic world of late 17th century Europe.
  • Getting back to The Lesbian Historic Motif Podcast: One of the great things about a podcast is that it's "sticky" -- people can pop in and listen to past episodes whenever they want to. In my automated social media postings, I have a rotating schedule of pointers to past episodes, though as always it's hard to know whether people are clicking through to listen to them. If one of the postings reminds you of a favorite episode, it would be wonderful if you shared it to your followers with a comment on why you liked it. The LHMP blog and podcast are a labor of love, but they're also meant to be a resource in a field where information can be hard to find. In 2018, the blog will come up on its 4th anniversary, and the podcast on its 2nd and it finally feels like knowledge of their existence is starting to trickle out past the "first circle" of people who found out about them directly from knowing me. I queried an author who specializes in lesbian historicals about doing an interview and was a bit dismayed to find out that she'd never heard of the podcast. So don't assume that the people you know you might enjoy the blog and podcast already know about them.
Major category: 
Promotion
Publications: 
Gifts Tell Truth

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