Lesbian Historic Motif Podcast - Episode 33 (previously 17d) - Death did not them Depart - transcript
(Originally aired 2017/12/23 - listen here)
One of the themes that traces the lives of women who love women through history is the representation of their relationships as being equivalent to heterosexual marriage. For the most part we look for that evidence in their lives: in living arrangements, in the way their contemporaries referred to them, in the ceremonies they use to celebrate their partnership, in how they addressed and referred to each other. But another place to find the symbolism of marriage for female couples is in death.
Beliefs about the afterlife in many religions led to the symbolism of joint of family burials and memorials, representing the hope that those close ties would be replicated after death. Marriage in particular was represented by a formal vocabulary of symbolism in joint grave memorials, both by images of the deceased shown joined in some way, and by the organization and content of the text describing them.
When that same symbolic vocabulary is used to commemorate a same-sex pair, there is often backpedaling by the archaeologists and historians who describe the memorial to explain away the implied relationship. And it is true that the symbolism of marriage was often adopted to talk about intense platonic friendship--both in life and in death. But even if one accepts that the symbolism of marriage is just that--symbolism--it is still meaningful that it is applied. And it is even more significant, perhaps, that grave memorials, by their nature, represent the complicity of the surviving relatives or friends of the dead in creating that symbolism in physical form--often at significant trouble and expense. Therefore, joint same-sex memorials can be read as reflecting the knowledge, acceptance, and even celebration of same-sex relationships by others in a way that the recorded actions of the couple themselves do not.
As is often the case in the historic record, it is far more common to find examples of male same-sex grave memorials. Alan Bray’s detailed study The Friend was inspired by a study of joint grave memorials for male friends and he comments on the scarcity of female examples.
There are several reasons for this. Foremost is the greater social prominence given to men’s friendships. Society praised male bonds even when the men involved had wives and children, while women’s friendships were typically considered to be secondary to family bonds. Phenomena like the Romantic Friendship movement of the 19th century were notable specifically because they gave women a context for treating their friendships with women as primary in their lives.
But this means that when a married woman was memorialized, the default assumption was that it would be her husband and children who took pride of place in the commemoration of her life. This was also an expectation for men, but it was more acceptable for a man’s intense friendship to be memorialized even over family ties.
A second factor affecting the creation of enduring grave memorials is the typical economic disparity between men and women. An unmarried man who left instructions to commemorate a same-sex friendship at his death was also more likely to be able to leave sufficient funds to see that the memorial was created in a lasting form than a woman in a similar position would be.
And yet, as we’ll see in this brief tour of women’s same-sex joint memorials, all of those factors could be superceded to leave us a record of the special place women held in each others’ lives. I’ve arranged this chronologically but there are large gaps in time, and my sources are exclusively English in the post-classical period.
Athens, 4th c. BCE
The difficulties of interpreting memorial symbolism are discussed at great length by John G. Younger in his study of women’s grave memorials in a cemetary of the 4th century BC near Athens, Greece. After reviewing the arrangement and identification of female scuptural figures in the memorials, including the symbolic meaning of posture, dress, gestures, and accessories, Younger identifies several monuments that he believes commemorate the close personal realtionships between non-related women.
Three of the memorials are similar enough in style and arrangement that they may be from the same workshop and be a formalized representation of a female couple. In each, there is a woman standing on the left, with her left hand raised in a gesture indicating speech. The woman on the right is seated in a chair, and the whole is framed by a simple stylized house. An inscription names them: Hedeia daughter of Lysikles and Phanylla daughter of Aristoleides. Demetria and Pamphile. Kallistomakhe daughter of Diokles and Nausion daughter of Sosandros.
In another memorial statue, two young women embrace and one touches the chin of the other -- a gesture that later would become specifically associated with romantic interest, though it isn’t clear that it had that meaning at this early date.
Two grave reliefs from Thessaly in the 5th century BC use different suggestive symbolism. Both show two women facing each other. In one, a woman lefts up the left shoulder of her dress and holds out a ball of wool as the other woman reaches to receive it. The offering of gifts typically indicates a romantic scene when the participants are of opposite sexes. The second uses the more specific symbolism of flowers being offered as a gift, using a very stylized gesture with one hand raised and the other lowered. This “hands up and down gesture” is most commonly seen in Classical Greek art in scenes of male homoerotic courtship--a genre that is much more common and well studied. This parallel example between two women strongly suggests a similar interpretation.
Roman 1st century BCE
The symbolism in a Roman marble grave relief from the 1st century BC is even less ambiguous. The carving shows two women from the waist up, facing each other, and holding their right hands clasped together prominently. The inscription identifies them as Eleusis and Helena, both freedwomen formerly belonging to a woman named Fonteia. Here is is not simply their inclusion on the same memorial stone that suggests an even closer relationship. The act of joining right hands was a standard symbol in Roman art for a marriage relationship, taken from the act of joining right hands during the marriage ceremony. The gesture even had its own name: dextrarum iunctio. It is unmistakable that whoever designed this sculpture intended to portray the two women in a marriage-like relationship, perhaps even as a married couple. There are a few tantalizing references in Roman literature to marriages between women, although often in a context where it’s deprecated as a strange foreign practice in places like Egypt.
England 15th century
We jump now to England in the 15th century. One reason for the detailed information about this memorial is due to a change in materials. The fashion for marking graves with engraved brass plates, rather than carved stones, meant that the details of the inscription and artwork were far less likely to be worn away by the passage of years and feet--for many gravestones were set into the floor of the church. And when there is a strong motivation to look for alternate interpretations of a same-sex memorial, it helps to have the physical details be unambiguous.
In the parish church of Etchingham in East Sussex, there is a memorial brass that jointly commemorates two never-married women. One was Elizabeth Etchingham who died in 1452, most likely when in her mid-20s although the genealogical evidence is not certain. The church in question belonged to the Etchingham family so it’s unsurprising that this is where Elizabeth was buried. She was surrounded there by the graves of other family members.
But the other half of the brass plate commemorates the death of Agnes Oxenbridge who died almost 30 years later in her 50s. The Oxenbridge family lived nearby, perhaps 12 miles distant, but they had their own family church and even if we assume Agnes died in Etchingham, there is no reason why her body couldn’t have been taken the short distance to rest with her family. The joint burial and commemoration was deliberate. It was almost certainly done by Agnes’s express wish, but it was also only possible because of the cooperation and efforts of both families.
The layout of the design on the brass follows a format that is most often seen for a married couple, although sometimes also found for unmarried siblings. The two women stand facing each other with a block of text beneath them, divided into two portions by a vertical line in the middle. Elizabeth stands in the more important position on the left, perhaps because the memorial is in her family’s church and because her family was of higher social status. She is pictured smaller than Agnes, a typical way of indicating the difference in ages at death. The two hold their hands before them clasped in prayer and Elizabeth looks slightly upward while Agnes’s gaze is directed slightly downward so that they appear to be looking at each other. Both women have uncovered heads--a certain sign that they were unmarried. But while Elizabeth’s hair flows unbound down to her hips, signifying her youth, Agnes’s hair is pinned up in a style more suitable for a mature woman.
The inscription is, of course, in Latin. The text under Elizabeth reads: “Here lies Elizabeth Etchingham, first-born daughter of Thomas and Margaret Etchingham, who died the third day of December, in the year of our lord 1452.” The text under Agnes reads: “Here lies Agnes Oxenbridge, daughter of Robert Oxenbridge, who died the fourth day of August, in the year of our lord1480, may God be merciful to their souls, amen.”
That seems little enough evidence on the face of it from which to hang an interpretation that the two women enjoyed a close relationship. But the overall artistic symbolism is inescapably that used for a married couple. When this is combined with the simple fact of the joint memorial in a context where that would not otherwise be expected, it’s clear that there was some close and very enduring bond that the two women shared--and one that their families supported and commemorated.
Knowedge of the typical lives of young women of the English gentry in this era can suggest a possible story. If the estimation of Elizabeth’s age at death is correctly placed in her 20s, they would have been very close in age. At that time women of their class would normally leave their families in early adolescence to live in a different household where they would learn the adult skills of running a household. They would establish and expand social networks that would serve their families in later life, and not uncommonly they would be introduced to the young men that were their most likely marriage prospects. The friendships established among these cohorts of young women and men frequently lasted throughout their lives and shaped their prospects.
Most typically, a young woman would then move on to marriage, either directly from her service or after returning to her family for a while. If she didn’t marry, she would usually remain living with parents or siblings, contributing her labor to the maintenance of the extended household. Unlike some other medieval cultures, the convent was generally not the expected fate for unmarried women of the upper class.
So we can easily imagine Elizabeth and Agnes meeting while both were placed out in the same household and forming a friendship of such depth and intensity that it was still the primary bond Agnes wanted to commemorate 30 years after death had parted them. Was that bond relevant to their unmarried state? There are any number of reasons a woman might not marry at that time, although only one in ten remained unmarried for the entirety of her life. But lack of opportunity wasn’t the only possibility. In one document giving the financial provisions for the daughters of a family at this time, there is an acknowledgement that a woman might “not be disposed to marry.” And so at least in the case of Agnes, we are allowed to imagine that she considered marriage to a man a less desirable alternative to remaining true to Elizabeth’s memory.
England 15th century
While the Etchinghams and Oxenbridges had the money for family churches and brass plaques, we can trace the desires of less well-off women to be buried together by the directions given in their wills. In 15th century London, a woman named Joan Isham who identified herself as a singlewoman--that is, someone never married--specified in her will that she be buried next to the grave of Margery Nicoll. From their names, we know they aren’t immediate family, but nothing else can be guessed about their possible relationship except that it was one that inspired Joan to spend eternity at Margery’s side.
A Crowded Grave in 1600
Bonds of passionate friendship between women might be commemorated in their grave inscriptions even when a man came between them. Mary Barber of Suffolk, England died on September 6, 1600, followed in death six years later by her beloved friend, the widow Ann Chitting, and closely thereafter by Mary’s husband Roger. It was Ann Chitting’s son Henry who arranged for their burial -- a joint arrangement of the three of them, with Mary lying between the bodies of her close friend and her husband.
The inscription that Henry commissioned declared that the two women “whose souls in heaven embrace” had “lived and loved like two most virtuous wights” and so he chose to unite those two “whose bodies death would sever.”
In this case, it is clear that--however intense the relationship between the two women--both had nonetheless married. And yet that relationship was recognized as being so close that it was only right to unite them in death, and still so socially acceptable that their surviving family had no hesitation in doing so publicly.
England 18th century
Two graves among the many funeral monuments in Westminster Abbey in London commemorate pairs of unmarried women who shared a household and whose relationships were framed in terms of intense friendship that--while perhaps unusually prominent in their commemoration--fell well within what was not only accepable but expected for women of the 18th century.
The monument of Mary Kendall was commissioned by her cousin, Captain Charles Kendall, and is typically florid in its description of the deceased, shifting towards the end to celebrating the “close union and friendship in which she lived with the Lady Catharine Jones” that inspired her to request that she be buried next to the future gravesite of Lady Catharine so that they would never be separated. The full inscription reads:
 “This Monument was Erected by Capt. Charles Kendall
	Mrs Mary Kendall
	Daughter of Thomas Kendall Esq’r,
	And of Mrs Mary Hallet, his Wife,
	Of Killigarth, in Cornwall,
	Was born at Westm’r Nov. 8 1677.
	And dy’d at Epsome, March 4, 1709/10.
	Having reach’d the full Term
	Of her blessed Saviours Life:
	And study’d to imitate
	His spotless Example.
	She had great Virtues,
	And as great a desire of Concealing them:
	Was of a Severe Life,
	But of an Easy Conversation;
	Courteous to All, yet strictly Sincere;
	Humble without Meanness;
	Beneficent, without Ostentation;
	Devout, without Superstition.
	These admirable Qualitys,
	In which She was eqall’d by Few of her Sex,
	Surpass’d by None.
	Render’d Her every way worthy
	Of that close Union & Friendship,
	In which She liv’d, with
	The Lady CATHARINE JONES;
	And, in testimony of which, She desir’d,
	That even their Ashes, after Death,
	Might not be divided:
	And therefore, order’d her Selfe
	Here to be interr’d,
	Where, She knew, that Excellent Lady
	Design’d one day, to rest,
	Near the Grave of her Belov’d And Religious Mother,
	Elizabeth Countess of Ranelagh.”
The said Catharine Jones was, indeed, buried there 30 years later. The immediate region of the chapel where these burials took place was something of a family mausoleum for the Earl of Ranelagh, with multiple members of the family buried there. The erection of the memorial by Mary Kendall’s brother and the location in an area in some sense “belonging” to Ranelagh, indicate that the “close union and friendship” between these two women was not merely recognized by their families but was considered to represent a bond between the two families. There is no indication in either woman’s memorial or in family records that either of them ever married.
Also in Westminster Abbey is the tomb of Katharina Bovey who died in 1727 and whose laudatory memorial inscription concludes with the following words:
“This monument was erected With the utmost respect to her Memory and Justice to her Character, By her executrix Mrs Mary Pope Who lived with her near 40 years in perfect Friendship Never once interrupted Till her much lamented Death.”
Some scholars have connected Katharina Bovey to a fictional character appearing in the July 10, 1711 issue of the periodical The Spectator under the description “the Perverse widow”. This widow is beautiful, accomplished, scholarly and completely uninterested in men. This same personage received the dedication of volume II of The Ladies Library. Here is how the fictional widow is described:
“You must understand, Sir, this perverse Woman is one of those unaccountable Creatures that secretly rejoice in the Admiration of Men, but indulge themselves in no further Consequences. Hence it is that she has ever had a Train of Admirers, and she removes from her Slaves in Town, to those in the Country, according to the Seasons of the Year. She is a reading Lady, and far gone in the Pleasures of Friendship; she is always accompanied by a Confident, who is witness to her daily Protestations against our Sex, and consequently a Barr to her first Steps towards Love, upon the Strength of her own Maxims and Declarations.”
If one removes the misogyny and male expectations of access from this description, we have a woman who enjoys reading, has a particular close female friend who is viewed as a bar to her interest in a renewal of the married state, and who while pleasant enough to attract a train of admirers, really wishes that they would learn to take no for an answer.
The identification of this fictional character with Katharine Bovey is supported by the editors of modern editions of The Ladies Library. Bovey was widowed at age 22 in 1692, after which she lived in retirement near Gloucester, devoted to charitable and religious works, in the company of her friend Mrs Mary Pope of Twickham. Pulling all the evidence together, Bovey and Pope seem to have established an independent household together, indifferent to offers of marriage, for “nearly 40 years of perfect friendship”.
Who among us would not wish for such a glowing epitaph and the chance to live the life that inspired it?
An examination of joint grave memorials for pairs of unrelated women that use the symbolism of marriage.
In this episode we talk about:
Articles mentioned
Links to the Lesbian Historic Motif Project Online
Links to Heather Online
I've attended several sessions of papers at the Medieval Congress at Kalamazoo that discussed the overtly sensual and erotic language included in male ecclesiastical correspondence, particularly of the medieval period. When discussing male clergy of, for example, 12-14th century France, one can triangulate on the relationship between texts that strike the modern ear as decidedly homoerotic and larger social discussions and concerns regarding sexual relations between men either in monasteries or among the clergy. Robert Mill's Seeing Sodomy in the Middle Ages discusses that larger context for men. But differences in how people viewed women's sexuality, in the greater opprobrium for male homosexuality, and in the political consequences of having "favorites" based on a sexual relationship, mean that there isn't the same larger context of discussion for understanding women's homoerotic correspondence. (Not that there was no larger context, but it isn't as extensively documented.) This can make it more difficult to examine letters like the one discussed in this article with an eye to determining whether they did express--or would have been considered to have expressed--a relationship that had romantic and erotic components, as opposed to using the language of romance simply as a form of literary expression.
Weston, Lisa M.C. 2011. “Virgin Desires: Reading a Homoerotics of Female Monastic Community” in The Lesbian Premodern ed. by Noreen Giffney, Michelle M. Sauer & Diane Watt. Palgrave, New York. ISBN 978-0-230-61676-9
A collection of papers addressing the question of what the place of premodern historical studies have in relation to the creation and critique of historical theories, and especially to the field of queer studies.
Weston, Lisa M.C. 2011. “Virgin Desires: Reading a Homoerotics of Female Monastic Community”
[The following is duplicated from the associated blog. I'm trying to standardize the organization of associated content.]
I've attended several sessions of papers at the Medieval Congress at Kalamazoo that discussed the overtly sensual and erotic language included in male ecclesiastical correspondence, particularly of the medieval period. When discussing male clergy of, for example, 12-14th century France, one can triangulate on the relationship between texts that strike the modern ear as decidedly homoerotic and larger social discussions and concerns regarding sexual relations between men either in monasteries or among the clergy. Robert Mill's Seeing Sodomy in the Middle Ages discusses that larger context for men. But differences in how people viewed women's sexuality, in the greater opprobrium for male homosexuality, and in the political consequences of having "favorites" based on a sexual relationship, mean that there isn't the same larger context of discussion for understanding women's homoerotic correspondence. (Not that there was no larger context, but it isn't as extensively documented.) This can make it more difficult to examine letters like the one discussed in this article with an eye to determining whether they did express--or would have been considered to have expressed--a relationship that had romantic and erotic components, as opposed to using the language of romance simply as a form of literary expression.
# # #
Around 600 in what would become France, two monastic women engaged in a correspondence of which one letter survives in a 9th century copy. Weston discuses the problems of interpreting this text as “lesbian” or even “lesbian-like”. If the letter was preserved in a religious context, could it have been understood as “lesbian” at that time? What does it mean to identify a text as “lesbian” apart from the author’s expressed lesbian identity? One suggestion is whether the text “actively performs” a lesbian-like sensibility, especially one shared within a community.
The convent in question was founded by Saint Radegund in 522 and was a novel type at that time, bringing together women from various families rather than being an establishment associated with a specific family. While secular noblewomen were defined by family and their lives used in service to their dynastic affiliations, monastic women were (incompletely) shifted from secular to monastic family, though secular ties could disrupt that ideal.
The reading and writing of texts was an essential component of engaging in that community, many of which texts directly address the definition and negotiation of virginity as a status. Literacy was an essential focus at the monastery of the Holy Cross--a required skill. The institution became famous for its participation in literary culture of the time. Much of this celebrates a culture of female friendship parallel to that better documented among male ecclesiastics of the era. This literature of male monastic friendship could express excessive poetic sensuality because it was given license by the overt elevated purity of the context. Similarly, writing about the convent community celebrated the mutual affection and bonds of the nuns. The letter considered here represents a performance of female desire expressed through the medium of friendship and so allowed that emotional excess.
The writer positions herself as younger and subordinate, able to express desire and a wish to emulate the addressee only because the addressee herself has requested it. This permission makes the expression possible, rather than being presumptuous due to the difference in status. This negotiates the acceptability of the expression of desire, a return of attention once the writer knows she herself has been noticed.
The article discusses the literature of how women learn to be virgins, including the caution that the Biblical claim that religious virgins “become like men” should not be taken literally as license for cutting hair short, cross-dressing, or behaviors with a masculine engagement with the world. (Note, however, that this explicit admonishment suggests that some women did take the Biblical passage as license for cross-gender presentation.) Monastic women are enjoined to love each other in close community to better direct their souls to God. There is a regular theme that they are expected to form close familial-like bonds, sometimes cloaked in the language of mother-daughter or sisterhood, and that such pairs might share a cell and bed. But at the same time, they are admonished that “unchastity of the eyes” (mutual glances) leads to unchastity of the flesh. And nuns are expected to police each other’s behavior as well as their own. These concerns are then applied to “special friendships”, see e.g., the Rule of Donatus against walking hand in hand or using endearments.
Correspondence would seem to evade concerns about physical interaction and gaze, but text itself is gazed on and written endearments may stand for caresses. The letter in question does not include such endearments and shifts from the personal (I) to collective (we) in its praise of the recipient. It offers praise in Old Testament imagery, using a metaphor of virgins receiving the Word into their wombs and bearing salvation. The letter uses recurring images of this metaphor. The writer protests her unworthiness to address the recipient as “sister”, using instead Lady (domina). Thus an otherwise suspect close relationship is re-framed in a distancing way (via differences of age or authority) while retaining an emotional closeness.
It’s funny how some stories just demand to be written while others are content to noodle around in the back of your brain for a while. I actually have a handful of in-process short fiction at the moment that is waiting for me to decide that a specific story really needs to get finished. But “The Language of Roses” wasn’t quite as patient. It’s also a different length than I’ve ever written before, though goodness knows, when I’m not paying attention to length, any of my short stories has the potential to turn into a novella! We’ll see what my beta readers think about the length—whether it’s about right or a bit bloated.
Oh, and it’s finished enough to go out to the beta readers! I haven’t emailed around to ask who wants to read this one yet because the pre-holiday schedule has left me as dizzy as usual. But I’m about to have a week’s vacation, so I’ll have some breathing space (in between sessions of Settlers of Catan) to get things done.
“Roses” was inspired by several sources, but primarily by watching the live-action version of Disney’s Beauty and the Beast and having the uneasy sense that someone whose initial modus operandi looks quite so similar to an emotionally abusive boyfriend is unlikely to reform quite that easily or permanently. The second primary source of inspiration was the question: what if the Beauty-character doesn’t fall in love with the beast, not because he’s a beast, but because she’s aromantic? What position does it put her in to be pressured to fall in love with someone to break a curse, when falling in love is against her deepest nature? And especially if the person doing the pressuring considers her love to be an entitlement? What if the Beauty-character agrees to pay her father’s forfeit (not knowing about the whole curse-breaking thing) simply because it saves her from the weight of social expectations? And what does a happily ever after look like for her?
As the story evolved in my head, I braided in several other fairy tale motifs to go with the additional central characters the story needed. I kept the vaguely 18th century French feel of the setting and played around a bit with the symbolic language of flowers to add more nuance than the traditional rose color symbolism. And, as I’ve blogged about before, it wasn’t until I was working on revisions that I found the voice(s) that make the prose come alive for me. We’ll see if it works for anyone else!
Don’t expect to see this story in print any time soon. Because it isn’t tied to the Alpennia series, and because novellas are a hard length to sell over the transom, I’m going to take the opportunity to try to pick up an agent for it. That’s likely to take some time, and then even more to actually sell the story if I do get an agent. But it seemed like a good opportunity to go through that exercise.
I find some interesting parallels in the concept of grouping lesbians and virgins together in a category "not women" (that is, women not sexually available to men) with the practice in some circles of the publishing world of creating projects or access campaigns on a category encompassing women, non-binary, and sometimes including trans people of all identifications. The unifying factor in the publishing approach is to recognize the historic privileged access that cis men have been given to publishing opportunities and to try to include writers who have not had access to that privilege. But on a symbolic level, the structure of these projects tends to reinforce the default centrality of cis masculinity, even when carefully avoiding defining the focus as "not cis men". It can erase the individual identities gathered under the umbrella, not only by silently defining the category in terms of what it is not, but because once you've created a heterogeneous group of "non-cis-men", the inherent and inescapable binarism in our society will result in a tendency to interact with the resulting composite category as in some way female.
In a similar way, the idea of joining virgins and lesbians into a conceptual category by virtue of their shared non-participation in the heterosexual sexual economy creates (and has historically created) some illogical conclusions, as well as reinforcing the default centrality of heterosexuality. "If you aren't having sex with men (or we a particular man) you must be / might as well be a lesbian." "If you haven't had sex with a man, then you're functionally a virgin not matter what you do with women." (One runs into this within lesbian communities sometimes. I recall one joke about how, "Being a lesbian means never being sure whether you're on a date--and never being entirely sure whether you're still a virgin or not.")
Of course, in certain segments of pre-modern society, there was official sanction for removing yourself from the heterosexual economy via virginity (religious or secular), whereas there was no such official (or even recognized) way to do it via lesbianism. This combined category of "not women", while identifying contexts that provided cover for lesbian identity, potentially erases genuine preferred virginity. And at the same time, it can erase genuine preferred lesbianism by implying that sex between women is a product of removal of access to (or by) men.
These thoughts aren't really directly relevant to the article covered here, but it sparked some ruminations that have been kicking around in my head for a while.
Jankowski, Theordora A. 2011. “’Virgins’ and ‘Not-women’: Dissident Gender Positions” in The Lesbian Premodern ed. by Noreen Giffney, Michelle M. Sauer & Diane Watt. Palgrave, New York. ISBN 978-0-230-61676-9
A collection of papers addressing the question of what the place of premodern historical studies have in relation to the creation and critique of historical theories, and especially to the field of queer studies.
Jankowski, Theordora A. 2011. “’Virgins’ and ‘Not-women’: Dissident Gender Positions”
[The following is duplicated from the associated blog. I'm trying to standardize the organization of associated content.]
I find some interesting parallels in the concept of grouping lesbians and virgins together in a category "not women" (that is, women not sexually available to men) with the practice in some circles of the publishing world of creating projects or access campaigns on a category encompassing women, non-binary, and sometimes including trans people of all identifications. The unifying factor in the publishing approach is to recognize the historic privileged access that cis men have been given to publishing opportunities and to try to include writers who have not had access to that privilege. But on a symbolic level, the structure of these projects tends to reinforce the default centrality of cis masculinity, even when carefully avoiding defining the focus as "not cis men". It can erase the individual identities gathered under the umbrella, not only by silently defining the category in terms of what it is not, but because once you've created a heterogeneous group of "non-cis-men", the inherent and inescapable binarism in our society will result in a tendency to interact with the resulting composite category as in some way female.
In a similar way, the idea of joining virgins and lesbians into a conceptual category by virtue of their shared non-participation in the heterosexual sexual economy creates (and has historically created) some illogical conclusions, as well as reinforcing the default centrality of heterosexuality. "If you aren't having sex with men (or we a particular man) you must be / might as well be a lesbian." "If you haven't had sex with a man, then you're functionally a virgin not matter what you do with women." (One runs into this within lesbian communities sometimes. I recall one joke about how, "Being a lesbian means never being sure whether you're on a date--and never being entirely sure whether you're still a virgin or not.")
Of course, in certain segments of pre-modern society, there was official sanction for removing yourself from the heterosexual economy via virginity (religious or secular), whereas there was no such official (or even recognized) way to do it via lesbianism. This combined category of "not women", while identifying contexts that provided cover for lesbian identity, potentially erases genuine preferred virginity. And at the same time, it can erase genuine preferred lesbianism by implying that sex between women is a product of removal of access to (or by) men.
These thoughts aren't really directly relevant to the article covered here, but it sparked some ruminations that have been kicking around in my head for a while.
# # #
Jankowski begins with lesbian imagery in Marvell’s Upon Appleton House [note: a 17th century work exploring family history that includes tropes of predatory lesbians in convents] and its challenge to the patriarchal sexual system. There is a consideration of the problems and consequences of naming historical periods and cultures. The convent as a site of sexual dissidence encompasses not only the imagined lesbian activity but the virgin’s removal from the mainstream sexual economy entirely. There, women are sovereign. She uses this as an introduction to the concept of nuns in different places and times and the place of virgin women in the medieval social hierarchy. That place was disrupted by protestantism which viewed virginity as unnatural and perverse. Jankowski considers the “virgin pleasures” in Lyly’s play Gallathea in which two cross-dressing virgins fall in love with each other and enjoy off-stage “pleasures” that do no result in a revelation of gender, that is, ones that by definition cannot involve genital activity. The play frames their desire as having “no cause” (i.e., no penis) but undermines this assertion by showing and approving of the love itself. In this, like nuns, they remove themselves from the category of “woman” to “not-woman” (i.e., virgin). The virgin/not-woman category aligns consistently with opportunities for female same-sex eroticism. The pre-modern “virgin” category has resonances with some feminist theories on the importance of opting out of the heterosexual social economy as the only pure response to patriarchy.
Lesbian Historic Motif Podcast - Episode 32 (previously 17c) - Book Appreciation with T.T. Thomas
(Originally aired 2017/12/16 - listen here)
This week our author guest for this month, T.T. Thomas, talks about some books and authors she particularly enjoys. We also chat about the challenges that authors of lesbian historical fiction face in enticing readers within the lesfic community and the misconceptions many readers hae about the stories that can be told.
* * *
(Transcript commissioned from Jen Zink @Loopdilou who is available for professional podcast transcription work. I am working on adding transcripts of the existing interview shows.)
Heather Rose Jones: So, T.T. Thomas, who we interviewed last week, has returned to the Lesbian Historic Motif Podcast for our book appreciation segment, to share her love for some other stories that have been set in history.
T.T. Thomas: Hi there.
H: Hello! So what book would you like to talk about today?
T: Well, actually, if I may, I’d like to talk about a couple of them. I’m a big fan of Caren Werlinger, having read her Miserere, which I absolutely love and did review. I like that book. I also like her other book, In this Small Spot, and there was another one called, Neither Present Time. And I think she’s working on some fantasy things right now.
H: Yeah, she told us about it in the interview I did with her last month.
T: Right, right, but Miserere set the tone for me and, you know, made me realize she’s an incredibly accomplished writer.
H: Tell us what specifically you enjoyed about the book.
T: I liked the juxtaposition of historical events with current events. And I liked the religious references, and I love her characters, her settings of course, another person who completely wows me with her settings is Susan Gabriel. Her books are, you know, I laugh a lot. Temple Secrets, True Luck Summer, and… The original one I read of hers, which was The Secret Sense of Wildflowers. She writes southern fiction.
H: What sort of historic settings does she use, because I’m not familiar with her?
T: She uses a combination of the 1930s and the present. They’re generational. So, people remember things. Another one I like, nobody ever talks about, but I loved her book: Elena Graf, Occasions of Sin. It takes place in the period of time between the two world wars. Again, beautifully written. I like Victoria Avalon’s A Small Country About to Vanish, about her home country of Israel. I mean, there’s so many people. I’m a big fan of Patty G. Henderson. I’m a fan. I’m a big reader. I really run the gamut, there’s nothing, there’s no genre that I will not read, even though I write historical. I wish I could say the same for all the readers of contemporary, I wish they would read historical more.
H: Well, that’s what this part of the podcast is all about is to tell our listeners about wonderful historic books that we think they ought to try.
T: Yah, I really think that people would be amazed if they… History must have been a dreadful subject for most people in school because the thing I’ve heard the most is, “I don’t want to read about how women, because women were maltreated, poorly treated in that period of time.” But you see most of us write about women who defied all of that.
H: Well, and I think the other part of that is that every novel tends to be about exceptional people. When somebody writes a historic novel about straight people, they’re not talking about the 99% of people who had miserable lives and died young of diseases.
T: Oh, you’re absolutely correct! I don’t think anybody can quite deal with the present the way historical fiction, historical romance, historians, deal with the past. Because we lack the perspective in a contemporary setting. I do also, as I said, I love and I like the contemporary writers, but the historical has a big place in my heart.
H: And I think that there’s an importance to having books set in history that fall between, what was the phrase, “Life being short, brutish, and nasty.” That stereotype of history, versus completely fantasizing it and inventing sunlight-and-roses-and-daisies history that isn’t any more true. I think there’s a broad space between that to tell stories about people who struggled, women who struggled to find happy lives, but who succeeded as well as anybody did.
T: Well, that’s right. I think the thing is though, that separates those women from other women is their own sense of identity and their sense of self-awareness. Those are two traits that the modern-day person can surely identify with. That’s what makes those women in the historical context, whether it’s history or fiction about history, so exciting. Because they did have a sense of themselves and they were self-aware. They knew what they felt and that is, I think, the crux of living.
H: If I’m remember correctly, the idea of doing these interviews for the podcast came out of a conversation that you were involved with on a Facebook group where we were trying to convince people to give historical fiction a try. To say, you know, it isn’t what you think it is.
T: One thing that I’ve enjoyed, what made it interesting to me, is to match the lesbian historical timeline, at least as far as we know it, with the world historical timeline. When you do that, you set those in a parallel universe with one another, you begin to see the incredible amount of sense of life, courage, bravery, imagination, that these women had. Yes, to overcome the culture and society in which they lived, but also to push it forward into the next decade and the next century and that’s quite a feat, when you can do that. And that’s what the women that I write about, what I want them to do. I want them to make breakthroughs, because I know such women did exist thanks to modern scholarship. What we know about people like Anne Lister and Butler and Ponsonby.
H: Yeah, and historic fiction is a way that we can share that knowledge and that understanding with our readers. So, thank you very much for, Tara, for coming on the show and sharing your love for historic fiction and for a few books in particular.
T: Oh, you’re very welcome, thank you, thank you for having me.
In the Book Appreciation segments, our featured authors (or your host) will talk about one or more favorite books with queer female characters in a historic setting.
In this episode T. T. Thomas recommends some favorite queer historical novels:
Links to the Lesbian Historic Motif Project Online
Links to Heather Online
Links to T.T. Thomas Online
The down side of deciding to blog all the articles in a collection like this is that sometimes there simply isn't anything useful to the project at all. Sorry. This is pretty much just a completist placeholder.
Freccero, Carla. 2011. “The Queer Time of the Lesbian Premodern” in The Lesbian Premodern ed. by Noreen Giffney, Michelle M. Sauer & Diane Watt. Palgrave, New York. ISBN 978-0-230-61676-9
A collection of papers addressing the question of what the place of premodern historical studies have in relation to the creation and critique of historical theories, and especially to the field of queer studies.
Freccero, Carla. 2011. “The Queer Time of the Lesbian Premodern”
This article is all about theories about theories and didn’t really have any comprehensible content I could summarize. Sorry.
I've updated the call for short story submissions for the Lesbian Historic Motif Podcast to include detailed information on how to submit and submission format. Remember that submissions will only be accepted during the month of January 2018. I'm looking forward to seeing what people send me!
Last week I posted my "what have I published in 2017" list. This week is my "what else have I written" list. It's based pretty much entirely on my blog for logistical reasons. I'm writing this about the same time of year as I posted last year's version, so the survey is roughly comparable, except that in 2016 I looked at only the calendar year up to Dec 8, and this year I'm covering everything since that date. So the 2017 stats are, while more accurate for a year's work, are inflated relative to 2016. In 2016 I posted 333 separate blog entries; So far as of Dec 6 I’ve posted 245, so even with the rest of December I'm definitely achieving my New Year's Resolution to slack off a little.
This is, once again, an excercise in reminding myself how productive I've been overall, even when my fiction publications don't reflect it. I've clumped things slightly differently, but I'll give the comparables. In summary, here's what I've blogged:
Essays
Misc.
Lesbian Historic Motif Project
Reviews
So here's the long version with links, perhaps not organized exactly as above.
Fiction
Writing - This doesn’t include all entries, just substantial essays
About Alpennia - Essays that are more specifically about the worldbuilding in the Alpennia series
Guest Blogs - both as host and guest
Miscellaneous Content - In any classification system, there's always an "everything else" category.
LaForge Civil War Diaries and Correspondence - An ongoing project to put my great-great grandfather's Civil War diaries and correspondence on the web, with annotations and commentary. Never fear, I will get back to working on this.
Note: the preceding are revisions and annotations of transcripts I had posted on the web prior to starting this blog series. The content between January-April 1864 was blogged in 2016. The rest here was put on the web for the first time as part of this blogging project.
Lesbian Historic Motif Project - I took a slight hiatus from posting new publications during the period when the content was being moved to alpennia.com. That was when I worked on all the tag annotations and standardization. It cut down a little on the total number of publications I would otherwise have covered. You may notice that I've done several thematic groupings: encyclopedias and who's-whos, Sappho, Spain.
Lesbian Historic Motif Podcast - Last year, this was a brand new category of "things I do." This year, on the 1-year anniversary of the show, I expanded from monthly to weekly. In 2018, I'll be expanding the type of content by adding the publication of original fiction. I'm almost afraid of what will come in 2019!
Reviews: Books/Fiction - SFF - I swear it's utter coincidence that all the author surnames are in the first half of the alphabet!
Reviews: Books/Fiction - Lesbian (generally I've classified a book here if I read it specifically for the lesbian characters, even if it also fits under SFF).
Reviews: Live Performance
Reviews: Movies - I watched a lot more movies than this. This isn't even the ones I liked, necessarily. Just the ones where I got inspired to review before the moment passed.
Review-Like-Objects: Misc
The Great November Book Release Re-Boot - This was a project I used as an excuse to re-promote Mother of Souls. Every day in May, I blogged about a book released 6 months previously that I thought my readers might be interested in. Note: I've read very few of these books, so while I was picky about what I included, inclusion is not necessarily advocacy.
Travel Posts - Not quite "con reports" in this case. The Helsinki/Worldcon posts are a combination of con report and travelogue. The Kalamazoo posts are my usual live-blogging of the sessions I attended.
Helsinki/Worldcon
Kalamazoo Posts
I can tell where my deepest loyalties lie within the post-modernist/historicist divide when I encounter articles like this one. At heart, although I think that a passionate involvement with one's subject of study can be a good thing, when monitored carefully, I'm suspicious of that passionate involvement being considered part of the subject of study. The author here discusses a hypothetical modern reader's interpretation of a hypothetical medieval person's hypothetical erotic interactions with the act of writing...and at that point I consider the topic to be an exercise in poetics, not in history. But that's just my take, of course.
Farina, Lara. 2011. “Lesbian History and Erotic Reading” in The Lesbian Premodern ed. by Noreen Giffney, Michelle M. Sauer & Diane Watt. Palgrave, New York. ISBN 978-0-230-61676-9
A collection of papers addressing the question of what the place of premodern historical studies have in relation to the creation and critique of historical theories, and especially to the field of queer studies.
Farina, Lara. 2011. “Lesbian History and Erotic Reading”
[The following is duplicated from the associated blog. I'm trying to standardize the organization of associated content.]
I can tell where my deepest loyalties lie within the post-modernist/historicist divide when I encounter articles like this one. At heart, although I think that a passionate involvement with one's subject of study can be a good thing, when monitored carefully, I'm suspicious of that passionate involvement being considered part of the subject of study. The author here discusses a hypothetical modern reader's interpretation of a hypothetical medieval person's hypothetical erotic interactions with the act of writing...and at that point I consider the topic to be an exercise in poetics, not in history. But that's just my take, of course.
# # #
Farina considers the tension between being a “passionate reader” of a text and being aroused by the act of reading, particularly for gay and lesbian readers whose lives are already hypersexualized by society. But she argues for the need for “erotic reading” in lesbian history. She discusses the concept of erotic reading especially as a counter to “received” non-erotic understandings of texts, for example, comparing erotic reading to “wonder” or “startlement” which are derided by literalist forces in historic studies. “Erotic” interaction with texts includes not just the act of reading but the act of writing--the tools and materials, such as manipulating a “phallic” pen. Another example would be devotional texts that encourage the reader to meditate on sensory experiences. Or texts that dwell on the experience or contemplation of love/desire.
Lesbian Historic Motif Podcast - Episode 31 (previously 17b) - Interview with T. T. Thomas - transcript
(Originally aired 2017/12/09 - listen here)
Back around a year ago, there was a discussion on a facebook group about what authors could do to raise the profile of lesbian historical fiction and to encourage more people to try the genre. That discussion was part of what inspired me to add author interviews to the podcast. And T.T. Thomas was one of the brainstormers, so naturally I asked her if she'd be interested in participating. This month she tells us about her historic passions, her interests. and her projects.
* * *
(Transcript commissioned from Jen Zink @Loopdilou who is available for professional podcast transcription work. I am working on adding transcripts of the existing interview shows.)
Heather Rose Jones: Hello, this is Heather Rose Jones with the Lesbian Historic Motif Project. Today, we’re interviewing author T.T. Thomas, who also goes by Tara.
T.T. Thomas: Hi there!
H: And we’re going to talk a little bit about your historic fiction. I’ve been browsing through your catalog and I notice you’ve got a favorite era right around the turn of the… You know, I don’t know if we call it the turn of the 19th century or the turn of the 20th century. I guess it’s the turn of the 20th.
T: The turn of the century anyway.
H: Yes, yes. Right around 1900, plus/minus.
T: Right, late 1900.
H: How did you get interested in that particular period?
T: Well, several things. I got interested in, well, things were changing in a very big way in the world during that period of time with the results of the industrial revolution were being felt in the areas of technology, transportation, education, just about every subject… We were moving from the Victorian era into the Edwardian era, so I actually start usually around 1890, particularly 1895 to the end of that decade.
H: Uh huh.
T: Queen Victoria died, I think, what was it 1902? Everything changed. Warfare changed, beginning with the Boer war, which was an English conflict in South Africa, or one that they got into. Then, with the beginning of WWI, it changed again. Basically, I write anything from 1890-1950, but specializing in the end of the 1900s through WWI and WWII.
H: Yeah. Times when everything is changing like that are really fun to set stories in, I know.
T: They are, I mean, even the time between the two wars, particularly in Germany, is a fascinating time, prior to the rise of Hitler and the Nazis and the whole ‘How WWII came about.’ Anyway, that period of time there’s a lot of activity taking place in the world. In particular, the world of women is changing at this time. That fascinated me. I originally became very interested in the person of Anne Lister. She actually lived a century earlier, late 1700s. I think she died in 1840.
H: Yeah, thereabouts.
T: Right, but there was a woman who lived life her own way. We wouldn’t know a thing about it, because she kept diaries in a code. A distant relative found the diaries, was encouraged to burn them after he broke the code and realized what the books were about. She loved women, she was very explicit in her diaries about her romances with women and there were numerous women. Then he didn’t burn those diaries, what he did was he hid them behind a panel of the family estate. Flash forward to the 1980s and a woman comes along named Helena Whitbread, who decides that her project is going to be to decode these diaries. She wrote a book about it called I Know My Own Heart. A modest review of what she had decoded.
H: There’s a second volume that she did as well, titled No Priest But Love.
T: Exactly.
H: Yeah, those diaries are so inspiring in terms of sources for historic research.
T: They really are, they really are. I would say that that single, well both women, Anne Lister and Helena Whitbread, were incredibly inspiring to me.
H: Although, I have to say Anne Lister was not necessarily a nice person.
T: No, no she wasn’t. She was a crotchety old bitch, but she was very…
H: Very human.
T: Yeah, very intelligent, very familiar with the classics, and would often entice a woman that she had met with some somewhat vague reference to a line in one of the Greek or Roman classics that revealed where she was coming from. I mean, she found a way. That has always intrigued me, but until I heard about Anne Lister, the only other women I had heard of were, I’m going to say this wrong, the Ladies of Llangollen.
H: [demonstrates the Welsh pronunciation of Llangollen]
T: Anyway…
H: It’s tricky.
T: Eleanor Butler and Ponsonby. I love what Jeanette Winterson says, that those two ladies, they lived in a haze of female virtue and deep friendship. As opposed to Anne, who pulled on her trousers each morning and went out into the world, because she had money and she had an independent mind as she lived her life. Those two sets of people were specifically very inspiring. Thirdly, I would say that I’ve done a great deal of research on Queen Victoria. I wanted to know where everything came from.
H: Uh huh. What other sources of historic research have you enjoyed using? I mean, the lives of the women are very inspiring, but for looking up setting and details of the history…
T: Yeah. A lot of it, Heather, I get from journals of professional societies, like the historians or the geographers or the sociologists. A lot of what I do turns around language, so, believe it or not, the OED is a really great source of research to me.
H: I noticed that letters and correspondence are a major theme carrying across several of your books. Have you studied historic correspondences to get inspiration for that?
T: Yes, I have. I’ve studied in the sense of fiction, but also in real life correspondence. When first started thinking about publishing, I got to know another author named Ann Herendeen. She wrote a book called Phyllida and the Brotherhood of Philander. She made reference to a site online in her forward about the man who has done a great deal of research on the old bailey transcripts, the courts in London.
H: Oh, I love court records.
T: Yeah, yeah, and I just got so involved reading these court cases. Including several cases of women who posed as man and wife, the discovery of it, the outrage, and the… whatever the response was. It often wasn’t the apparent lesbianism that got such people intro trouble, it was because they had some kind of domestic disagreement.
H: Yeah, yeah. I promise that we’re going to come around to the specifics of your novels.
T: Okay.
H: But I was also interested in the settings that you’ve used. You know, you’ve got stories set in America and in England and the one that’s coming out soon in Morocco.
T: Right, England and Morocco.
H: I was wondering what your own background is, I don’t like to make guesses based on people’s accents, but you sound solidly American.
T: I am; however, I was born in England, outside London in a small little village called Tadley in Hampshire. My mother was Irish, and my father was an American officer, flight officer, in WWII. Then I was born, but because of my father’s citizenship, of course, I was American, and I was educated here in the United States, in Illinois in fact.
H: I was looking at, specifically, there’s a pair of stories that you have, the first one, The Blondness of Honey, which, I think, starts out, or its set, in the San Francisco area?
T: Yes, it is, uh huh.
H: And that’s in the 1890s, so before the big quake, but during the big boom of the San Francisco era.
T: Right, that’s right. The women in this story attend Mills college.
H: Oh, that’s so cool.
T: Right, which is in Oakland, my wife is from the Bay Area, so I had lot of… I had a beta, I had a guide. I had a guide for a lot of that. Some of it takes place on Point Reyes peninsula. Some of in the city, meaning San Francisco…
H: Can you give us a sort of a plot synopsis of what happens in that story?
T: We have our main protagonist and she has a childhood friend and they are attracted to one another. This is, as you say, 1895 or whatever. It’s really an Odyssey. It’s a great big book that takes everybody all the way across the country to Boston and back to Chicago and there is another woman involved. It’s about how the women dealt with the phenomenon of same-sex attraction against the backdrop of what was going on historically in this country. This was also a period of time where we had the Columbia Exposition in Chicago, the World’s Fair, and I wanted to make it a saga. You know, first book, I had to write war and peace, right? (laughter)
H: (laughter) It looked to me, based on the description, and I apologize that I haven’t read your entire oeuvre.
T: I apologize that I can’t remember the plot! (laughter) Kidding.
H: (laughter) There’s a story, Vivian and Rose, that it says the framing of that story is that it is being written by one of the characters from The Blondness of Honey.
T: Exactly. This was a novella that I actually wrote before The Blondness of Honey, but I didn’t publish before. It’s in the first-person, which is tricky, a lot of it, again: letters, notes, the kind of thing I like to do, that kind of correspondence.
H: Reading the description of it, it talks about mistaken identities, and abductions to Barbados, and it sounded to me like it was one of those over-the-top gothic novels like Jane Austen juvenilia. That the idea of it being written by your character gave you the freedom to make it really over-the-top.
T: And it was, it was over the top. It’s very dramatic and, I mean, heart-on-sleeve, yah, abduction, Barbados, New York… I packed a lot into a small book. Yes, and it was because it was being written by someone who was a writer at the turn of the century, that century.
H: Yeah, it really had that echo to it.
T: Yeah, and it has that feel when you read it. At least, I hope it does.
H: So, the book that I think I was first aware of your name in connection with is A Delicate Refusal…
T: Yeah, uh huh, that’s one of my favorites.
H: That’s the WWI, England, and two women who have a somewhat unusual type of relationship in the context of the book.
T: Yes. I introduce, without calling it this, the concept of a demisexual. Back in the days prior to WWI, after and during WWII, the worst thing that could be said about a woman is that she was frigid. It took us until now, I guess, to understand, or in the last twenty years, that is not the case. That it’s not some kind of an ailment.
H: Let’s define that for our listeners. A demisexual is someone who feels desire only after they’ve fallen in love, to put kind of in a short-hand.
T: That works. What I did is that I created this completely over-sexed [character] and had her falling in love with someone who is basically a demisexual. They are so flummoxed by this attraction. Oh and, by the way, the second woman is married.
H: As one was.
T: Yeah, ha! They’re neighbors. What happens, basically, is that they both almost have a nervous breakdown in response to their own relationship. The one who is completely sexually typical is suddenly going blind, sort of.
H: That sounds an awful like the old wives’ tale about what makes you go blind. Was it meant to be symbolic that way?
H: Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yes, it was. Yes, it was. Thank you, you’re the first person who seems to have noticed that. Anyway, the other one becomes partially and intermittently paralyzed. Has trouble walking, standing, it would be what certain psychologists from certain areas would have called sexual hysteria. Socially it was called frigid, frigidity. The women who had the bear the brunt of these diagnoses suffered quite a bit. It would take someone like the other neighbor to break her out of it. This is their story. Again, against the backdrop of the eve of WWI. Well, I had to get rid of the husband, for one thing.
H: So, you send him off to war, huh?
T: (laughter) I had to get rid of a couple of people.
H: Reading the descriptions of your books, I get that sense that your books are kind of on the sexy side, is that fair to say?
T: Yeah, but it’s like no body parts, I mean, I am the queen of the metaphor when it comes to the actual sexual encounter. I don’t do fade-to-black, but I don’t name body parts either, for the most part. That was a conscious decision because of the era in which I am placing these people.
H: That’s always tricky, you know. What would a 19th century woman have called what she was doing?
T: Right. I mean, the Victorians were far more adventuresome than they were given credit for being, but the language of their liaisons was very metaphoric. To bring this full-circle, I start out with someone like Anne Lister, you know, who writes in code, and I end up with people who speak in metaphors.
H: I would like to move on to your newest book, because by the time this interview goes live, it looks like Mistress of Mogador will be out in print.
T: Yes, it will be.
H: That looks like quite an adventure story.
T: It is an adventure story. It’s basically the story of a woman who trades inheritances with her brother. He gets the estate, she gets the shipping company. He’s driven it into the ground and it’s almost bankrupt and she has to salvage it. It’s fine with her. It’s her adventure. She goes to Morocco.
H: And gets involved with a Berber woman…
T: Yes, a Berber woman, who works for a Jewish man who works for the sultan. She has these three ratty old ships and she meets this Berber woman who seems to know, before she does, that there is a chemistry going on.
H: What’s the challenge of writing a character for a setting that’s so very different from your own? When you were writing about Morocco and Moroccan culture, what are the difficulties…?
T: Huge. Huge! I don’t speak Arabic, I had to… It’s taken me almost three years to do the whole thing. The Berbers have always tried to maintain their own culture against the backdrop of having been the conquered. I had to do a lot, a lot of research. Again, there are quite a few Moroccan researchers who write in English, Arabic, and French, so I was using Google translate quite a bit. I can sort of stumble through French. It was fascinating. I had a fabulous time writing this book.
H: If people want to learn more about you or follow you in social media, where should they go?
T: For my website, it’s www.ttthomas.com.
H: And I’ll put all this in the show-notes so people can find it easily.
T: On Facebook, I have TT Thomas-Author. I don’t use that much because I actually interact with a lot of people, so I just have my TT Thomas. I’m very available on that.
H: Twitter? Blogging? Any other platforms?
T: I do twitter, but it’s mainly political and I’m not blogging right now.
H: Okay, well thank you very much for coming on and letting me interview you for the Lesbian Historic Motif Podcast. I hope you’ve enjoyed the experience.
T: I have, Heather. Thank you so much for inviting me, and it’s been fun. Thank you.
Show Notes
A series of interviews with authors of historically-based fiction featuring queer women.
In this episode we talk about:
Links to the Lesbian Historic Motif Project Online
Links to Heather Online
Links to T.T. Thomas Online
